Student Costs for Dual Training RA-Aus

[Phil Perry]

Cost of duel training? I have no idea...en guarde!

Come on Howard,

 

Not everyone is a wordsmith like you ( ! ) "I challenge you to a DUAL ! - feather dusters at 400 metres - - - !

 

(Thread title spelling now fixed - Admin)

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Dual training $9.00 per hour in a Cessna 150 or an Auster. That was a quarter of a week's wages in Guernsey. .Alan.

Yeah, I used to pay a FORTUNE ( ! ) for training at Casey Airfield, Berwick ( Vic ) on C-150 and PA-28 140, but at least I could hire a new(ish) C-172 for under $12.00 per hour WET.

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Come on Howard,Not everyone is a wordsmith like you ( ! ) "I challenge you to a DUAL ! - feather dusters at 400 metres - - - !

Me a wordsmith? It only has four letters...

 

 

[DWF]

Me a wordsmith? It only has four letters...

This looks like a jewel of a duel over a duel that should have been a dual.

 

There are quite a few four letter words that can get you into trouble

 

DWF

 

 

[DGL Fox]

I think you guys are on the wrong forum...I have seen a fencing forum somewhere..this section of this forum is for "Student Training and Further Learning" & costs for training also information on learning to fly, I don't see anything about foils and fencing..

 

David

 

 

[Tomwantstobeapilot]

The big issue with running a flying school is hours billed, if you live somewhere with low rainfall and moderate winds you have a decent competitive advantage.Spare a thought for our European and American aviators who are grounded due to snow for up to 3 months a year.

Or us Tasmanians' with our rubbishy weather... ;-)

 

Tom

 

 

[DWF]

I think you guys are on the wrong forum...I have seen a fencing forum somewhere..this section of this forum is for "Student Training and Further Learning" & costs for training also information on learning to fly, I don't see anything about foils and fencing..David

Curses! Foiled again.

 

Anon

 

 

[poteroo]

Obviously many different situations in flying schools. Financing charges are a killer for most start-up schools as this is interest + capital that you just have to meet every month. The other killer is insurance - expect to be paying $3000 plus for full cover on a $50k aircraft. Then there's hangarage - at many airports this is going to run into $30-$40 pw, or $1500 to $2000 pa. Replacement costs (depreciation) are a hidden 'cost' that many don't really consider. It runs into several thousand dollars per year - yet everyone thinks of it as a tax 'saving'! It's not.

 

When you begin dividing up the overheads - you need to be doing 500 hrs pa to keep them within bounds. Let's say your financing costs are $3000 pa, your insurance $3000 pa, your depreciation $5000, and your hangarage $1500 pa = $12500 pa. Even 500 hrs utilisation creates a $22.50/hr cost, and many schools are doing less hours, on $120k aircraft. It's not unusual for overheads to be in the $30-40 per hour range.

 

Outside maintenance is going to be somewhere in the $10/hr range for a 24- Jabiru anyway.

 

The operatings of fuel and instructor are at least dependant on whether you are flying the aircraft. Instructor rates are very contentious, but my info says that $45-$50 ph is about the number in WA. Fuel is roughly $2/L, and average use rates about 16 LPH = $30/hr. Landing fees are often $10-$20/day - so divide your average daily sorties into this.

 

When you get down to it - we have to be looking for charges not that much different from a GA school with a $50k Cessna 150/152.

 

And then - whatever sector of aviation you're in, we have that accounting line called unforeseens. NB for newbies - this is an aviation certainty, so you need to be aware of it.

 

On my numbers, schools need to be charging out at about $150/hr as a minimum for an average 'cheap' cabin class aircraft like a J-120 or 160/170. On that - you won't be making a return-on-investment that excites your accountant.

 

Why do we do it? It's financial insanity, but more fun than the stockmarket!

 

And for the record - we charge out at $176/hr for a J160, plus usually $5/hr toward landing fees to our local airport operator. For that, you also get 30 mins preflight briefing and 15 mins postflight briefing plus student record/logbook writeups. In other words - 2 hrs of my time per lesson.

 

happy days,

 

 

[cooperplace]

And for the record - we charge out at $176/hr for a J160, plus usually $5/hr toward landing fees to our local airport operator. For that, you also get 30 mins preflight briefing and 15 mins postflight briefing plus student record/logbook writeups. In other words - 2 hrs of my time per lesson.

happy days,

sounds reasonable

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

I think you guys are on the wrong forum...I have seen a fencing forum somewhere..

I thought this thread was about Duel, I know nothing about building fences!

 

 

[Phil Perry]

I think you guys are on the wrong forum...I have seen a fencing forum somewhere..this section of this forum is for "Student Training and Further Learning" & costs for training also information on learning to fly, I don't see anything about foils and fencing..David

Hi David,

 

Basically, Australia is now a comparitively rich country, with no overseas borrowing deficit ( unlike the UK ), and is a nett exporter of oil and minerals, whereas it Wasn't when I was there,. . . it was just called "The Lucky Country" which it certainly appeared to be. This is why your standard of living is so high and why costs for everything are elevated to be commensurate with the standard of living that the average Australian now enjoys.

 

Yes you probably have a governnment beaurocracies and regulatory bodies which makes the Spanish look positively helpful, but nonetheless you live in a generally wealthy land, whether this is due to a mining boom or anything else.

 

Thus, flying training, as with anything else, may perhaps appear expensive and quite variable from place to place also.

 

PS, if you didn't get a bit of thread drift occasionally, then it wouldn't be such a fun place to visit would it ??? such is the human condition.

 

Phil

 

 

[poteroo]

Australia is in debt alright..... somewhere around $90b I think, and it's increasing. In 2007 - at the changeover of governments .....it was actually in credit.

 

The more useful comparison is of 'the average income' or, 'basic wage' compared to the cost of dual training. When I started in 1963 - dual cost was about $8-10/hr and the basic wage was $11/wk.... (to best of my memory). If you take the current so called average income of $1200/wk compared to $250/hr training............... then things have actually improved.

 

happy days,

 

 

[Admin]

Thread title spelling now fixed

 

 

[DGL Fox]

[metalman]

Australia is in debt alright..... somewhere around $90b I think, and it's increasing. In 2007 - at the changeover of governments .....it was actually in credit.The more useful comparison is of 'the average income' or, 'basic wage' compared to the cost of dual training. When I started in 1963 - dual cost was about $8-10/hr and the basic wage was $11/wk.... (to best of my memory). If you take the current so called average income of $1200/wk compared to $250/hr training............... then things have actually improved.

 

happy days,

exactly my initial point,, the cost of anything has no meaning unless it has some sort of reference point,,,which may explain why it's dearer to learn in a mining town as opposed to a small country town,,,the market will decide what people will pay , the guys in Gladstone for example, could travel a couple of hours south to Maryborough or north to Rocky for cheaper flying,,,but if they choose to stay they'll pay,,,and if the itch is bad enough people will find a way to scratch it ,regardless of the cost!

 

 

[DGL Fox]

I personally think that the mining boom with it's high pay scales has lifted up the average wage, I don't think that $1200 per week is a true indication of the average wage in the suburbs outside of the mining areas...

 

I have worked up in Emerald, QLD, for a time and people have money there no doubt, when you see young 18 yr old guys running aound in 60K Holden utes you just know it must be true, and when I talked to the CFI/owner of a flying school in Emerald he said he's that busy he needed to put on more staff.

 

So you are right, if you earn big money, you are prepared to pay more to do the things you enjoy and the owner of the flying school is more than happy to take your money...that's business..

 

David

 

 

[Admin]

I wish I could get a job earning anything let alone an average wage of $60k

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

When you begin dividing up the overheads - you need to be doing 500 hrs pa to keep them within bounds. Let's say your financing costs are $3000 pa, your insurance $3000 pa, your depreciation $5000, and your hangarage $1500 pa = $12500 pa. Even 500 hrs utilisation creates a $22.50/hr cost, and many schools are doing less hours, on $120k aircraft. It's not unusual for overheads to be in the $30-40 per hour range.

With a limited market when you might only be doing 500 hours simply jacking up the price is only going to reduce demand further. Some lateral thought might work here, how about offering a significantly discounted rate for folk that agree (contract) to hire for a minimum number of hours per year.

 

Governments use this prinicple, tax something you get less of it, subsidise it and demand increases. Demonise and tax the wealthy more and your country ends up with less wealth. Make welfare easier to obtain..... a larger pool of Labor voters!

 

Now back OT!

 

 

[Methusala]

Marketing more doubtful voodoo economics again? Tax the rich and watch the country get poor? Please explain how it is that the last ten years has seen America give a tax holiday to the rich and ends up with the greatest depression in history. Hah. Want to buy a nice bridge? Seriously....... Don

 

 

[Gentreau]

With a limited market when you might only be doing 500 hours simply jacking up the price is only going to reduce demand further. Some lateral thought might work here, how about offering a significantly discounted rate for folk that agree (contract) to hire for a minimum number of hours per year..........

That certainly appears to be a good approach, however I think the concern for the average flying school is profitability more than purely numbers of hours. If you plot the figures given by poteroo above as an example, you get the results shown in the attachment. You can see that the incremental savings reduce significantly after about 400 hours per year.

 

 

The impact of increasing annual hours from 500 to 600 (a 20% increase) is only a reduction of $4 per hour in costs. The question a flying school has to ask is how much they need to reduce their prices in order to get those extra hours. If they have to reduce the price significantly, it may not be worthwhile. If you plot some imaginary figures showing the impact of price versus hours flown (lower price = more hours) the annual profit peaks at some point and then reduces. The trick then for the school is to find that specific combination at which the combination of hours flown @ price XXX = max profit.

 

The other consideration is how much actual demand there is in the catchment area of the school. There is a certain number of hours above which they will never go, as the demand is simply not there. In a limited market, it is sometimes better business to charge more, even if it means losing some customers. All in all a very tricky balancing act for a small business to perform.

 

.

 

 

[dodo]

In practice, reality gets in the way of flying more hours, especially in RA. One example I understand too well, is that the weather tends to stuff with my plans for flying, and this has a direct financial effect on the flying school (no money from me today).

 

My guess is that many flying schools find (sensible) ways to cut their costs before they concentrate on more hours. This has a beneficial side effect that they don't have to focus so much on billable hours, and more on flying issues. Either do your own maintenance (largely weather independent, but you need to be a L2), or fly somewhere without excessive airfield costs, or fly a Gazelle or LSA55 (with lower capital costs and well-understood maintenance issues and easy parts).

 

dodo

 

 

[68volksy]

I agree very much with Poteroo's cost break-downs and 500 hour minimums. I also love the way that Gentreau has displayed it graphically.

 

There is a fixed cost to opening the door of a flying school. There are also a relatively fixed number of hours available in any market place. As such there is always a pricing sweet spot for every marketplace and school in the country. There is also the simple fact that people prefer to fly nice shiny looking aircraft and will generally pay a little more for the privelege.

 

A very interesting case study is actually underway at the local airport at the moment. One of the schools has been selling $49 TIF's by the hundreds on those online "bargain" websites. They've been very busy indeed flying these TIF's for well over 6 months now. If you break it down they'd pay 20% (minimum from what i've heard) to the discount website leaving $39.20. Take $20 for landing fees at the airport leaves $19.20. Take $25 for fuel in a Gazelle which leaves -$5.80. Pay an instructor a pittance leaving a net loss on each flight of say -$15.80. Who now pays for aircraft maintenance? The business case seems to be built on less than half of the vouchers actually being redeemed. The customer base is wildly different to what you'd usually expect to see at a flying school. I must say they're doing the other schools around the region a great benefit as once people have done their TIF if they're actually keen to fly they seem to look around and every other school within 200km's is cheaper on an hourly basis...

 

 

[Diddy Pilot]

Volksy, I don’t disagree with the concept of what you are getting at with your case study, but there are a few clarifications required.

 

 

The TIFs are $49 for 30 minutes $99 for the hour.

 

10% to Living Social.

 

Who would landing fees be payable to? (As you have pointed out before the school in question is owned by the airport’s operator –collector of fees)

 

At least one of the SFIs is also L2, maintenance on a Gazelle is not too much.

 

 

Instructors in training now conducting TIFs (they have recently put on 3 young trainee instructors, giving them seven instructors). The school has recently purchased two more Gazelles, one for training (and TIF) purposes the other solely for private hire by the schools graduates they are now turning out(possibly as a result of an earlier TIF). So there must be some $$$ coming in from this exercise. In comparison the rest of the airport has been very quiet, if TIF clients are going next door then there should be a corresponding escalation in activity.

 

 

My reading of this TIF activity is that it is a promotional and money making focus. As earlier posts identified some schools teach for the love of flying some are run as a profit making business first, flying experience second.

 

I have looked at this and struggled with the maths, in both directions. On one hand doing all the TIFs can’t be making much per hour, but with the volume being put through it covers fixed costs. On the other hand, $200 an hour for dual in a Gazelle must be making money. The Gazelles are not new, one of the ones new to the school was advertised on RA Aus website in December at $23,000. So if this is the purchase price, then even if you need to replace a whole engine you do not need to factor much in per hour. Using your $25 per hour for fuel and $50 per hour for an instructor there is $125 per hour to pay for plane costs, if the plane clocks up 500 hours per year ( less than 10 hours a week, easy at the moment) there is $62,500 to cover insurance, maintenance, advertising, even replacing an engine or whole aircraft. Remember, the landlord does not pay rent, hangarage or landing fees, unless he chooses to. This obviously gets better if more hours are flown.

 

 

[DGL Fox]

There is also the simple fact that people prefer to fly nice shiny looking aircraft and will generally pay a little more for the privelege.

Well I can say I don't need a new shiny plane for $250 per hour say when I am in training and I would much prefer to train in a Gazelle at $180 per hours or less, maybe when I am finished my training and I get more experience then I would probably look at a faster aeroplane but not now.

I wish that flying schools would have more options for students.

 

David

 

 

[Methusala]

If "the MARKET" worked as the voodoo economists claim it does then there would be schools that hit the sweet spot and they would be raking it in and the others would be "losers" and would quickly go out of business. However, we know because we are adults and have our eyes open that it doesn't work like that at all. Civil society, or those whose motives are not profit driven, have a secure place doing what they do with expertise and dedication, often for less dollars than true businesses. Also , other factors like geography and personal preference mix the picture up too. Beware of graphs and statistics. Also slickly worded arguments can be confusing when we are seeking the truth. Don