Student Costs for Dual Training RA-Aus

[68volksy]

Volksy, I don’t disagree with the concept of what you are getting at with your case study, but there are a few clarifications required.The TIFs are $49 for 30 minutes $99 for the hour.

 

10% to Living Social.

 

Who would landing fees be payable to? (As you have pointed out before the school in question is owned by the airport’s operator –collector of fees)

 

At least one of the SFIs is also L2, maintenance on a Gazelle is not too much.

 

Instructors in training now conducting TIFs (they have recently put on 3 young trainee instructors, giving them seven instructors). The school has recently purchased two more Gazelles, one for training (and TIF) purposes the other solely for private hire by the schools graduates they are now turning out(possibly as a result of an earlier TIF). So there must be some $$$ coming in from this exercise. In comparison the rest of the airport has been very quiet, if TIF clients are going next door then there should be a corresponding escalation in activity.

 

My reading of this TIF activity is that it is a promotional and money making focus. As earlier posts identified some schools teach for the love of flying some are run as a profit making business first, flying experience second.

 

I have looked at this and struggled with the maths, in both directions. On one hand doing all the TIFs can’t be making much per hour, but with the volume being put through it covers fixed costs. On the other hand, $200 an hour for dual in a Gazelle must be making money. The Gazelles are not new, one of the ones new to the school was advertised on RA Aus website in December at $23,000. So if this is the purchase price, then even if you need to replace a whole engine you do not need to factor much in per hour. Using your $25 per hour for fuel and $50 per hour for an instructor there is $125 per hour to pay for plane costs, if the plane clocks up 500 hours per year ( less than 10 hours a week, easy at the moment) there is $62,500 to cover insurance, maintenance, advertising, even replacing an engine or whole aircraft. Remember, the landlord does not pay rent, hangarage or landing fees, unless he chooses to. This obviously gets better if more hours are flown.

Thanks for the clarification Diddy. The fact that the owner of that school also leases the airport and does not pay the $20/session landing fees and $8/day parking that he charges the other school at the airport is a very sore point. Especially when he's only leasing the airport from Council for $250 per year. We're all actually getting a little tired of him telling everyone he owns the airport when he's only leasing it at the moment. He has had an option for 18 months now to buy it and has not stumped up with the funds. The lease runs out in September so we're all holding our breath hoping he can't find the cash as he's made it quite clear that unless you fly with him or hire his aircraft you're off the airport if he buys it.

 

"maintenance on a Gazelle is not too much" is very true for the manner in which the operation appears to be run. The green gazelle out there has had two prop strikes and was flying again in a couple of hours on both occasions. From what we observers can figure it's the only reason he keeps buying new aircraft. He's already written off one in a crash and had two prop strikes - he needs the spare parts !

 

 

[68volksy]

There has been no escalation in activity at the school next door as they're booked solid in both Canberra and Goulburn until late April. The CFI will not hire junior instructors (especially young ones) as they do not put out good students - she makes that very clear. There's no shortage to the amount of young kids just out of school with their shiny new CPL who are not good enough to get an airline or charter job sending in resumes and calling her up. If a quality instructor comes along she'll interview them, fly with them and employ them only if they're good enough (not just because they've paid her several thousand dollars for an instructors rating). As such the instructors are generally a few years older and a lot more experienced. I think at last count they were talking of well over 100,000 hours of training experience between them. No doubt the hiring of 100 hour instructors who've been trained by 100 hour instructors is one way of making a quick dollar but it's certainly at the expense of safety and quality in my view.

 

 

[68volksy]

Well I can say I don't need a new shiny plane for $250 per hour say when I am in training and I would much prefer to train in a Gazelle at $180 per hours or less, maybe when I am finished my training and I get more experience then I would probably look at a faster aeroplane but not now.I wish that flying schools would have more options for students.

David

The school in Goulburn is answering that call at the moment but it always comes down to the aircraft that are available for cross-hire really. Cross-hire is a great way to expand a fleet I must say. The school has had several students finish their training lately who've gone on to purchase their own aircraft. They are also good enough to cross-hire them back to the school so the school now has for hire a Gazelle ($135/hour), J170 ($150/hour), Sportstar ($160/hour), Warrior II ($200/hour), Cessna 172XP ($300/hour) and Cirrus SR20 ($400/hour). Quite the range!

 

If only they could get a factory-built X-Air...

 

 

[DGL Fox]

Yes that's great, a good selection of aircraft and great prices the beginner to start flying, it shows that they are thinking of the affordability of their students and I think because of that more can afford to fly with them which is great for their cash flow too, I'm sure.

 

David

 

 

[Kiwi Greg]

I fly a Sportstar at Gympie. $185 dual, $140 solo.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

I fly a Sportstar at Gympie. $185 dual, $140 solo.

That sounds very reasonable Greg, Dunno what the Pound / Dollar exchange rate is this morning. . .

 

At our little non- licenced airfield, which has one QFI and one assistant instructor, the training cost on the Eurostar ( same as sportstar I think ) is £110.00 per hour for both DUAL and SOLO This includes fuel and VAT, but any student has to join the Aero Club which manages the site, ( BMAA Requirement ) this is £24.00 per annum, followed by a "User Fee" of £330.00 per annum for licenced pilots using the site as a base, plus any hangarage rental required @ up to £65.00 per calendar month. If a hangar is purchased, it attracts a monthly ground rent of £35.00.

 

Most schools charge less to teach a student on his / her own aircraft, but this varies quite a bit too. Private hire rates are a bit less, but a lot of schools don't hire as they don't have any spare aircraft !

 

But as a general comparison, that price you are paying seems very good. Training charges increase if the school is situated upon a licenced airfield though, which just reflects the higher overheads the school must pay to operate. The price increases the further toward the South of England you travel. . . ( all the rich spivs live down there !! )

 

 

[boingk]

Don't get me started on the Goulburn thing, volksy. I trained there for the majority of my flight hours to date and cannot recommend it highly enough - everything is above board and although John (owner/leaser/whateverer) may be a bit 'howya-doin' to deal with at times its all very much professional and above board. He hires good instructors for the most part and personally my experience was good.

 

To the original poster, consider the costs of owning an aircraft yourself. Mine are as follows per week:

 

$100 for loan repayment

 

$50 for hangerage

 

$25 for on hours fuel (Caltex 95 unleaded)

 

$10 per hour for maintenance allowance

 

That ads up to $150 fixed per week and $35 per flying hour. If I fly more than one hour a week I break even over hiring - plus its my aircraft and thats a big convenience and reassurance.

 

Dual training is another issue altogether. A CFI is on $100 an hour, and many trainers are on anywhere between $25 and $75 an hour depending on the school, stage of training being given and aircraft being flown. If you need training you need to pay for it. I cut a deal and called it a set sum to PPL stage, including GFPT and RAA plus numerous endorsements. Worth thinking about.

 

Cheers - boingk

 

EDIT: I might also add that the green Gazelle at Goulburn ('5515') has done a few props due to pilot error. All props are replaced with the standard and approved type as specified by RAA to retain their 24- registration. John has been quite irritated by this. I personally saw one of these incidents and was thinking the fellow was quite close to the edge of the strip - obviously I saw the impact and radiocalled him. Couldn't believe it - I'm the one in a tailwheel and the bloody car-steering nosewheeler prop strikes? Nice one buddy.

 

 

[68volksy]

EDIT: I might also add that the green Gazelle at Goulburn ('5515') has done a few props due to pilot error. All props are replaced with the standard and approved type as specified by RAA to retain their 24- registration. John has been quite irritated by this. I personally saw one of these incidents and was thinking the fellow was quite close to the edge of the strip - obviously I saw the impact and radiocalled him. Couldn't believe it - I'm the one in a tailwheel and the bloody car-steering nosewheeler prop strikes? Nice one buddy.

 

Hi Boingk,

 

Sounds like John's sold you a pretty good story during your training . Let's just say that the only people that would go anywhere near one of his operations (let alone near one of his aircraft) are only those who've not known him for very long. I'd be quite curious to hear his version of why he really sold the GA school and why the purchasers changed their mind and ran so quickly?

 

It's not the replacement of the prop that i was referring too but the requirement for an engine tear-down or at the very least removal and inspection of the gearbox and prop flange run-out check that is needed. If it's an older model 912 there is generally no escaping the engine tear-down to inspect the crankshaft. Hard to do any of that in a couple of hours...

 

 

[boingk]

To my knowledge its been torn down repeatedly by the appropriately certified guys on his crew and possibly also had one or more cylinders/pistons replaced. That may also have been the other yellow Gazelle though, 3184.

 

I'm not sure why so many people are against him, he's a business man and does good business. If you want to try and screw him over then he'll make damn well sure that he does you over instead - its that simple. I cut a deal on my flying with him, kept a log of flying hours and paid on time to the agreed amount. I get along well with him.

 

The current mob out at the airfield is at him over him charging reasonable rates on water and electricity supply - which to my knowledge are in the bottom 30% of similar aerodromes in this state as far as cost goes. There was a movement to take him to court but I believe that he has negated it with suitable documentation providing evidence to the former.

 

For what its worth, several of the planes out thre have been out of action for some period of time due to needing maintenance or repair - the Grumman Yankee needed a new fibreglass tailcone after a tail-low landing and the Cessna 150 Aerobat that I trained in is currently out indefinitely due to pitting on the gear legs, found at its 100 hourly, which approaches the acceptable repair limit. I believe the maintenance shop is awaiting word from Cessna themselves on how to proceed with that one.

 

I'd say cost would be a big issue for the GA school - I had free run of the place while I was there a year ago, just rock up in the morning if the weather was good and go flying with one of the crew in the 150 for GA training! It was unreal. Now it is a very different place and exceedingly busy most of the time, especially the TIFF's and skydive crew of a weekend.

 

I gues my point is that its always easy to judge from the outside. I know the operation fairly well and don't have a problem with it.

 

Cheers - boingk

 

 

[DGL Fox]

Well I have never met John personally but I have just recently had a couple of phone conversations with him about a couple of things and he sounded like an alright sort of person to me if that means anything.

 

David

 

 

[68volksy]

He doesn't supply any water or electricity at the airport - not sure where you got that from? The only water out there comes from tanks attached to the individual hangars and Country Energy supplies the electricity. The only thing he's tried to charge people with is for "access to the airport" from their hangar sites. There's been no need for a court case because he had no legal right to impose any charges to begin with.

 

Just ask some of the guys out there with something against him why they feel the way they do. No-one's ever tried to screw him over - quite the opposite generally if you listen to the stories and do a little research. It is an airport though so try to squeeze through the immense damn egos that float around out there at times and get to the truth.

 

 

[Guest Condog]

Im paying $288ph for my son for a 30 year old cessna 152 dual. A briefing is $55 extra

 

But i drop him off at say 1.30 and he rings me when he is finished at about 4 oclock on the days he has no briefing.

 

They obviously do a small brief and debrief every flight, plus pre flight checks etc

 

So they are generally only charging for the time the prop is spinning

 

 

[68volksy]

Seems a little steep for a 152 but that depends on where he's flying I suppose. Just for comparison Canberra is $290 dual and Goulburn is $250 dual both in Piper Warriors with no charge for briefings. All the instructors are Grade 2 or above.

 

 

[facthunter]

You have to compare it to something that has relevance. Say Average weekly earnings. or the cost of a basic house.

 

When I started I could do just less than 2 hours flying for a weeks wages.

 

Think you are doing a lot better today. Your planes are smaller, fuel is cheaper. Nev

 

 

[M61A1]

You have to compare it to something that has relevance. Say Average weekly earnings. or the cost of a basic house.When I started I could do just less than 2 hours flying for a weeks wages.

Think you are doing a lot better today. Your planes are smaller, fuel is cheaper. Nev

OK.....now it cost three times as what it did when I started training in a Drifter. My wages are not even twice what they were for the same timeframe. Drifter- up by 200% / Wages- up about 90%

[facthunter]

How many hours you get for an average weeks wages was the point. It addresses the question of affordability. Disposable income is a factor too. Cars for instance have become much cheaper than in the early 90's. My figures go back to the 60's where I reckon flying was fairly expensive. If I had to predict, I can't see things getting cheaper either. Nev

 

 

[Nev25]

I really cannot see the point of comparing how it was years ago and other country's as the cost of living is different to today and here

 

Bearing in mind USA have a class of aircraft that you don't need a licence for!!

 

I am in the process of shopping for a school/person to train for my certificate

 

Interesting thing is here (Latrobe Valley) one guy has quoted me $190/h (admitably he is only available Friday afternoons and Sundays)

 

Another (Who claims to teach as if you are advancing on to a "higher standard") wants $220/h

 

Both in a J160

 

At the end of the day I no matter who I go with I will end up with the same certificate do I not!!!!

 

Its a no Brainer really

 

I know of 2 places one in Tassy and one at the Oaks who are $150/h and have suggested one can take a week of work and spend the week there (Like a holiday) and obtain my certificate in a week

 

I'm sure there are others that do this

 

I have also been advised against this

 

Then there is Sydney Recreation Flying Club $145/h in a Lightwing

 

 

[coljones]

At the end of the day I no matter who I go with I will end up with the same certificate do I not!!!!

Its a no Brainer really

 

I know of 2 places one in Tassy and one at the Oaks who are $150/h and have suggested one can take a week of work and spend the week there (Like a holiday) and obtain my certificate in a week

 

I'm sure there are others that do this

 

I have also been advised against this

 

Then there is Sydney Recreation Flying Club $145/h in a Lightwing

You might end up with the same certificate but equally will you be as competent as an airman from the various FTFs?

 

I don't understand why anyone would caution against taking time off work and doing some solid training - regular training helps and doing more training in a consolidating way in a shorter period helps iron out the bad spots and reinforce the good spots.

 

 

[68volksy]

I think it's wise to spend time doing your certificate. And to choose very carefully your instructor. Whilst any instructor can teach you how to fly there are not many that can teach you how to be a "pilot". For me a pilot does more than simply fiddle with the levers up front of the plane. They'll have a "safety-first" attitude and truly feel the full weight of responsibility for the lives they're taking into their hands. They'll understand the importance of keeping proper records and appreciate and respect the lives that were lost in developing the legislation and guidelines within which they operate.

 

It might then sound counter-intuitive but the cheaper guy working only a couple of days a week I think will be substantially more likely to instill within you this approach. If he's doing it for love and was smart enough to realise that it's hard to make a decent living out of RA instructing and keeps another job then he's your man. For him it's more likely to be about creating a good pilot rather than how many dollars he can make out of it. Your progress may be slower but you'll appreciate the extra time it took down the line when you start to see the quality of pilot those who rushed through their course have become.

 

Definitely take your time. Enjoy yourself. Your training should be fun and rewarding. One extra thing to ask about is the maintenance records of the aircraft and who performs the maintenance. It's an oft forgotten thing but the good school will have the details handy and be more than willing to offer them. A school not long back which had been very busy recently had their entire fleet of 5 aircraft grounded as un-airworthy during a CASA inspection.

 

Avoid the "one week to certificate" courses as all you can't develop the proper awareness for your surroundings in one week. You might be better able to play with the controls but that's such a small part of taking a machine into the air. You'll not be able to experience the vast differences in aircraft performance from a hot, humid summers day to a cold and icy winters day. A good instructor will also want to see you make the call about whether or not to fly on any one day. This call can be harder for some to make than others (especially if new and keen) but a good instructor will persist until the student one day says "It doesn't look good today".

 

My 2c worth anyway.

 

 

[facthunter]

Same certificate is not the issue. You will only ever be an ab-initio pilot ONCE . If you build a house on a bad foundation it will never be a good house. If your preliminary flying is not adequate how would you know what was lacking until it hit you in the face. You can fluke a couple of checks and get your certificate. Check around, Find people who are happy with their trainers, and don't base it on price. alone. Oils ain't oils. Nev.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Have been down the road before havnt we. I recall getting some bad flack for daring to suggest that cheaper isn't better. I have to draw the line when I'm checking out someone for an Instructor rating and they have never seen the nose yaw in the opposite direction to the turn. Trust me when I say, price should be the last thing on your mind.

 

 

[poteroo]

Your hourly rate is only one part of the cost equation.

 

(1) Think 'hours taken to PC' or 'hours taken to crosscountry endo' .......... x rate for a final figure

 

(2) Think 'instruction quality' because you might find at some later stage that you'll require remedial work to bring you up to competency in certain deficiencies of your flying.

 

Only later in your career will you appreciate the importance of your initial training. When you score your 1st job - and the employer compliments you on your overall flying knowledge, and knows of your original school or instructor by name - then your early costs per hour won't seem that important!

 

happy days,

 

 

[facthunter]

The opportunities to detect some misunderstanding or bad technique don't happen as often as one would think. A pilot may go a long time with something totally wrong in a belief or concept and it doesn't show till the plane is placed in a "situation" and the faulty technique shows up. A " where the hell did you learn to do it that way " moment.

 

Doing a crop dusting course or an instructor rating or a complex conversion may be such an occasion. An accident might be another occasion where it shows but it is a bit late then. Nev

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

At the end of the day I no matter who I go with I will end up with the same certificate do I not!!!!....

I know of 2 places one in Tassy and one at the Oaks who are $150/h and have suggested one can take a week of work and spend the week there (Like a holiday) and obtain my certificate in a week. I'm sure there are others that do this. I have also been advised against this

Why? I suggest it's much better and an hour a week (although it will almost certainly take more than one week to certificate).

 

Also realise that there are significant differences in average hours to certificate, basically some are going to try to milk you for what they can so the hourly rate is not everything. Ask them what their average time is & talk to their other students.

 

 

[dazza 38]

A mate of mine completed his Pilot certificate in two weeks (full time) at Skyfox flight training in a TW Skyfox ( I think from memory he did it just after the 20 hour mark maybe a little bit over guessing maybe 22 hours). That is good going learning to fly a TW Skyfox with no previous flying experience.

 

Along as somebody picks a good time with the weather, learning full time will save time because you don't have to spend 15 minutes or so doing revision from what you learnt from the previous lesson. If I had my time again, I would have done it full time.

 

My mate also did his x country endorsement full time as well . Had that knocked over in a week and a half I think from memory.