What Aussie challengers are there for the Jabiru?

[old man emu]

While I've been away, my boss has been having more than the usual headaches with the Jabiru company and its products. He's nearly to the point of pouring 100LL into the cockpit of any he sees and then having a quiet fag beside it.

 

Now, I appreciate the concepts envisioned for the Jabiru and I'm all for supporting an Australian made product, but for ages Jabiru's concepts have not materialised into a really reliable airplane. Also the quality of some of their replacement parts has been questionable.

 

I'm wondering if the market should be looking at other factory-built Australian airplanes that could give Jabiru a run for its money. What's available in the marketplace to compete with the Jabiru?

 

Old Man Emu

 

 

[dazza 38]

I think Brumby is the best.Not as cheap as the Jabby, but like everything in life, you get what you pay for. If I was a owner of a flying school looking for a reliable robust aircraft.It would be hard to look past the Brumby 610 either powered by the 912 or the Lycomming 0-233. My 2 cents

 

 

[old man emu]

Why do you think that the Brumby is more expensive than the Jab?

 

OME

 

 

[dazza 38]

They are more expensive to purchase that a J160 or J170. I believe maybe similar to a J230.They are over a 100K to buy new from memory with decent avionics. But cheaper than most imports to purchase.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Even if Jabiru never sold another engine, its still going to take 20 years for all the engines to do a natural death. A lot easier for your boss to find another industry to work in.

 

 

[old man emu]

fly-tornado,

 

You comment is tending "Off Topic". I know that you are confirmed Jabiru hater and have declared jihad on them, but the idea of this thread is to discuss possible Australian sources of two-seater tourer/trainer airplanes with adequate range and mile gobbling performance.

 

As for my boss' employment future, LSAs provide only a small segment of his income. Most of his work is GA, and with over 40 years' experience, I think the next industry he'll work in is funereal.

 

OME

 

 

[biggles5128]

While I've been away, my boss has been having more than the usual headaches with the Jabiru company and its products. He's nearly to the point of pouring 100LL into the cockpit of any he sees and then having a quiet fag beside it.Now, I appreciate the concepts envisioned for the Jabiru and I'm all for supporting an Australian made product, but for ages Jabiru's concepts have not materialised into a really reliable airplane. Also the quality of some of their replacement parts has been questionable.

 

I'm wondering if the market should be looking at other factory-built Australian airplanes that could give Jabiru a run for its money. What's available in the marketplace to compete with the Jabiru?

 

Old Man Emu

In the interest of safety, would you enlighten us all on the particular problems...............

 

 

[fly_tornado]

OME, if your boss doesn't need the Jab business, why is he taking it?

 

My answer: anything that can take the new 912IS

 

 

[David Isaac]

FT come on, lets look at alternatives:

 

I'll start with:

 

The Brumby,

 

The Lightwing Speed,

 

The AAK Hornet (not sure if there is a 24 category even though they can be factory built)

 

Foxcon Terrier?

 

What else guys and Gals?

 

 

[dazza 38]

Not the Foxcon Terrier, their engines are not ASTM approved. All foxcon terriers should have had their rego's changed from 24 to 19 rego.I was reading the audit yesterday & apparently there was still 6 aircraft that had not been changed to 19 when it was written .All may have changed by now.

 

 

[facthunter]

Think all offerings there are a bit more weighty. The frame of a jab stands up to training doesn't it? I've never had any concerns about one coming apart in the air. Nev

 

 

[David Isaac]

Not the Foxcon Terrier, their engines are not ASTM approved. All foxcon terriers should have had their rego's changed from 24 to 19 rego.I was reading the audit yesterday & apparently there was still 6 aircraft that had not been changed to 19 when it was written .All may have changed by now.

Can always bolt up a 912S and solve that problem.

 

 

[old man emu]

OME, if your boss doesn't need the Jab business, why is he taking it?

Because business is business. We are there to serve the needs of aviation, and to keep what exists flying. The problem is that it's only five or six Jabirus that we service, and they all have their problems. We don't service Mooneys or anything British.

 

The frame of a jab stands up to training doesn't it? I've never had any concerns about one coming apart in the air. Nev

I have no complaints about the fuselage of Jabirus, per se. They are strong enough overall, but we have had problems which have been of the manufacturer's making, like landing gear nuts stripping because they were not aviation grade; engine control cables failing because they were not swaged properly; lack of documentation (we need Release Notes because some of out airplanes are VH reigistered). Another problem is the way Jabiru makes alterations to its engine willy-nilly and without, it seems, following CASA rules.

 

The Rotax engine is a good one, agreed. But how does an imported engine improve the viability of manufacturing in Australia?

 

What I'd like to see is an Australian airplane that can compete with Jabiru in all facets - engineering, affordability, ease of service, after sales service, ease of operation.

 

OME

 

 

[Bandit12]

The Rotax engine is a good one, agreed. But how does an imported engine improve the viability of manufacturing in Australia?

Here is the problem OME - it is rapidly becoming not viable for manufacturing of most kinds in this country. Add to that a relatively small population for purchasers, and a lot of competition from internationals and you have little incentive for someone with a spare 6 or 7 figure bank account to invest in a new design.

 

 

[facthunter]

jabiru make the lot. Who is going to go down that track? We are unlikely to manufacture an engine here. I thought about it once. The rotec is designed to be a nostalgia " period" replica type engine. Looks and sounds "old". Nev

 

 

[deadstick]

I too have experienced the poor quality control from the factory,( wrong parts, unfinished parts, parts not serviceable on receipt, propellors delaminating on the test run post fitment, incorrect bolts for wings struts ETC), currently the waiting time to have an engine 'looked at' for repair is out to 12 weeks and growing with no stock of new motors until March I can only speculate it may have something to do with an inherent problem.

 

The configuration on the engines must be getting hard to manage.

 

As far as an alternate goes I think Brumby has the credentials to give them a run.

 

Manufacturing your own engine in Australia would be difficult me thinks...

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Every couple of months some new Italian company comes out with a promising new design which never makes commercial production. So its not just Australia that can't make a good alternative to Jabiru.

 

The smart money would be to build a copy of the 912S in China. That would make commercial sense.

 

 

[facthunter]

I don't agree ft. the rotax design requires a lot of quality control and china needs to make zillions of everything. The world market is not big enough.

 

The engine would have to be extremely simple and easy to do everything on.. Not require any special skills to service. I don't see high revving car and motorcycle engines with a redrive as the answer. The market is too small. Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

If you build a copy of a 912S you have a market for your engine. There are a ton of airframes that already support the 912S which means there is a market for your engine. Most of those Italian designs will require a new cowling and engine mount to fit.

 

 

[facthunter]

I still disagree. The engines last for many years. Most don't get any more attention than the required gearbox service and intake rubbers and the odd exhaust system cracks. and how long before the "copy" is proven. It can be done but money would be made easier for them in many ways. The Rotax is a pretty old design now. The newer model is not the same. The copy would be very obvious and people are resenting that happening. When you copy something none of the development work and fault finding is known to the copier and when a fault emerges they have difficulty in rectifying it.. Nev

 

 

[old man emu]

If you build a copy of a 912S you have a market for your engine.

Yes you could build a copy of any of the 912 series, but it would be just that ... a copy. If I was going to have any copy of an existing aero engine made in China, I would want a team of quality control inspectors to check every component, sub-assembly and assembly, then I'd want some expert people to bench test each engine before it was pushed out the factory door.

 

It seems from the input received so far that there are two major sub-assemblies to consider in an airplane - the airframe and the engine. I think that we can design and build a suitable airframe, either as a factory build or as a kit build. The engine is the fly in the ointment. Does one reinvent the wheel as Jabiru has done by designing and building its own engine, or does one import an existing engine such as a Rotax or Lycoming? In reality, most airplane manufacturers design an airframe with the intention of fitting a third party engine.

 

OME

 

 

[fly_tornado]

The Chinese own Continental and Cirrus, can't be long before they are using the know how they have bought to start churning out their own product. A 912S copy would only have to be as reliable as a Jabiru to find a market

 

 

[metalman]

Is rag n tube still considered viable for school aircraft, fabrics can be good for a couple of decades even outside, and 4130 tube fuselages have been a proven thing for a long while, easy to repair and can take a flogging, I know the slippery airframes seem to be the way but for training is it really needed,,,

 

Met

 

 

[farri]

The smart money would be to build a copy of the 912S in China. That would make commercial sense.

Not too sure about that! It may be different these days but the end of Austflight Aviation (the original builders of the certified Drifter, which allowed legal twin seat instruction to begin) occured after they decided that it would be better to produce the Drifter in China and have them shiped back.

 

It didn`t work.

 

Frank

 

 

[fly_tornado]

But that was 50 years ago. Anything that you buy now that uses electricity comes from China, computers, TVs, phones, electrical appliances, tools.

 

I hope you are sitting down, even Cessnas are made there now.