What Aussie challengers are there for the Jabiru?

[Ultralights]

if i was going to buy for a flying school, N# 1 on the list would be the Brumby. well built, rotax or even lycoming reliability.

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

if i was going to buy for a flying school, N# 1 on the list would be the Brumby. well built, rotax or even lycoming reliability.

Don't want a flying school plane thanks. Just a touring a/c that has a good range, cruise speed,luggage space and comfort.

 

That why I adore my J230

 

 

[jetjr]

The Chinese own Continental and Cirrus, can't be long before they are using the know how they have bought to start churning out their own product. A 912S copy would only have to be as reliable as a Jabiru to find a market

And you think they will be cheaper? Id siuggest bombadier would have the maker for breakfast if they tried to enter US, EU and Aus markets

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Brumby do exactly that ....make the aircraft but get a third party engine. I am sure someone here in oz could do it but would need a lot of money...millions realistically to get it going

 

 

[winsor68]

Does Brumby produce 24 rego factory produced Aircraft?

 

Is the Hughes Speed range 24 factory built?

 

Heck!!! Are any of them except Jabiru (how ironic!) actually still fully above board able to produce factory built 24 rego fly away aircraft?

 

 

[pudestcon]

Maybe we need something like http://www.thruster.co.uk/spec/ . Oh, wait a minute... made in England and has a Jabiru engine as an option.

 

Rag and tube though...........................

 

Pud

 

 

[Marty_d]

I don't see high revving car and motorcycle engines with a redrive as the answer.

Why not?

 

Not being argumentative, I'm genuinely curious.

 

Reason being, I'm very interested in using a BMW 1150 motor with the Take Off redrive for my 701. If there are reasons why this is a bad idea, I really want to hear them before I lay out the cash!

 

Thanks.

 

 

[old man emu]

There's no reason why a rag'n'tube airplane wouldn't work in this market. I'd throw the Aeropup's cap into the ring as an example.

 

OME

 

 

[Keenaviator]

Why not? Not being argumentative, I'm genuinely curious.

Reason being, I'm very interested in using a BMW 1150 motor with the Take Off redrive for my 701. If there are reasons why this is a bad idea, I really want to hear them before I lay out the cash!

 

Thanks.

High reving car and motorcycle engines run at about 10 - 20% 90% of the time whereas aircraft engines have to operate at 75% 90% of the time.

 

 

[nong]

The premise of this thread is beyond me. I would have thought the last thing a workshop operator would want is an airframe/powerplant that gave no trouble......?!

 

f-t, I observe from your posts that you might be a trolling, defeatist. Trolling is fun! Defeatism is ugly. Are we so weak as to not support our own side, merely because the home product is a flawed gem?

 

Best as I can tell, Jabiru's flaws aren't translating into fatalities and they seem to have built up a favorable long term safety record.

 

Yes, the failures are frustrating and, in my case, sometimes costly. However, these losses must be offset against the considerable initial and ongoing economies achieved.

 

Prospective students are invariably delighted and amazed when first setting their eyes on the J160. Compact and modern.

 

Whilst I acknowledge the 912 is a fine powerplant, it is, to me, a hopeless marketing proposition because of the rattly, muffled, "European" sound.

 

The other day I was working with a TV crew and their response to the one sixty was, "she sounds real throaty".

 

The fellas at Brumby have a traditional GA orientation and, like Jabiru, have a sustainable business structure. Their preference for a traditional GA powerplant looks like a good bet on both reliability and exchange rate grounds. I reckon that Brumby will be quick to address any in service flaws that might arise. Brumby charge out rates will likely be higher, but I think they have a good claim to be offering a quality product suitable for intensive use.

 

Recently, I was doing a little training in a Steve Cohen designed, Sky Dart 2S. This Australian product had every appearance of being suitably rugged but all our landings were OK, so I don't really know!

 

Elevator authority was "just right". There was enough elevator to get the job done, but no excess at the forward C of G limit. The machine was not "twitchy" in pitch. Good development work there, Steve!

 

The tandem seating is a nice change and really teaches students to take C of G position seriously.

 

The front seat ride is sailplane like, out in the nose, and the instructor is buried in a maze of steel tube, in the wing root area. The instructor is provided with an altimeter, air speed indicator and a tacho.

 

The machine is easy to fly for the student. For the instructor, the feeling is of great security because of all the surrounding steel, visibility is good for each occupant and it is generally an easy machine to instruct in.

 

Sadly, it is 19 reg. I don't know how far Steve got with this project or weather it may be ongoing.

 

A strong technical/manufacturing base is just so important to any nation. Each and every one of our manufacturers is a treasure, methinks.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Does Brumby produce 24 rego factory produced Aircraft?Is the Hughes Speed range 24 factory built?

Heck!!! Are any of them except Jabiru (how ironic!) actually still fully above board able to produce factory built 24 rego fly away aircraft?

Yes Brumby 24 rego

Huges Speed- Was 24 rego, probably still is but there were some issues in the Audit. W & B & also Propellors I think. Also Howie Huges lost his right to be a "approved person". He could have that priviledge back now.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Don't take offence to this Nong but patriotism is a subjective thing. More than a few of us can trace our heritage back to European ancestors, who no doubt would be proud to see us flying behind fine Austrian power plants.

 

 

[68volksy]

Best RA-Aus aircraft i've ever come across that works in flying schools is the good old Gazelle. They were all Australian owned and built - does that count? Alternatively get the guys at Jabiru to stop thinking up new designs and focus on improving the current designs for 12 months would create some real nice aircraft in my view.

 

If someone started pumping Gazelle's out again in Australia i'd buy a couple in an instant. Not interested in the Eurofox - no steerable nosewheel. No reason you can't tweak things a little and maybe hang the new baby LSA lycoming engine off the front either - 2400 TBO and great fuel usage!

 

 

[68volksy]

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

 

[metalman]

Best RA-Aus aircraft i've ever come across that works in flying schools is the good old Gazelle. They were all Australian owned and built - does that count? Alternatively get the guys at Jabiru to stop thinking up new designs and focus on improving the current designs for 12 months would create some real nice aircraft in my view.If someone started pumping Gazelle's out again in Australia i'd buy a couple in an instant. Not interested in the Eurofox - no steerable nosewheel. No reason you can't tweak things a little and maybe hang the new baby LSA lycoming engine off the front either - 2400 TBO and great fuel usage!

Interesting, why the concern for the nose wheel, apart from the brake wear is there any other reasons?

 

 

[M61A1]

The premise of this thread is beyond me. I would have thought the last thing a workshop operator would want is an airframe/powerplant that gave no trouble......?!.

I think the gist of it is that there is always work to be done carrying out the necessary servicing, but it can be frustrating for the owners, who will make it frustrating for the maintainers, when things keep breaking that shouldn't. As well as the inconsistency of the spares and lack of necessary (legally) traceability of parts that was mentioned.

[fly_tornado]

I would think fixing a Rotax would be a lot more fun that trying to fix the unfixable!

 

 

[David Isaac]

Interesting, why the concern for the nose wheel, apart from the brake wear is there any other reasons?

Isn't the Eurofox a tail wheeler, hence Volksy's concern for "no steerable nose wheel"? Volksy's funny way of saying it needs to be tricycle configuration for training like the Gazelle.

Didn't the Gazelle have spar strength issues?

 

 

[turboplanner]

Because business is business. We are there to serve the needs of aviation, and to keep what exists flying. The problem is that it's only five or six Jabirus that we service, and they all have their problems. We don't service Mooneys or anything British.OME

Well that's a contradiction if ever I saw one - leave the Jabs alone then.

 

 

[David Isaac]

...... Best as I can tell, Jabiru's flaws aren't translating into fatalities and they seem to have built up a favorable long term safety record ....

Isn't that just pure good fortune ... one day one of these engine failures will end up in a fatality like the Sting accident in Goulburn tragically did. At least two of the instructors that I know are extremely nervous about sending students out on solo Navs because of concern on engine reliability. At least one of those instructors after 4 engine failures in 5 years operation of a new aircraft, paid for an STC to have a 912 fitted to his J160.

 

 

[metalman]

The eurofox can come with either landing gear, David, and there is a lot of mis information about the Skyfox/gazelles, they have issues but no different to any other aircraft, the biggest problem with them is the company is no longer around so there's a big problem with any minor problems.the spars are fine ,they had a "life" imposed by CASA to be review as the aircraft spent time in service,the company folds so no review is able to be done, so far there has never been a spar failure in one with some aircraft doing double the "lifed"hours. ( in private use of course)

 

So what is everyone's ideal trainer that is a good personal aircraft as well?

 

To me it's the following

 

Tubular fuse (easy to repair ,time tested strength, )

 

Stall speeds in the mid to low thirtys

 

At least 45 inches wide at the shoulders

 

Easily convertible from tricycle to taildragger

 

4 hours endurance

 

95-100 knots cruise ( in actual speed not salesman speed)

 

Flaps ( I prefer manual but an option of electric)

 

Simple panel

 

912 rotax ( although the UL engine seems to be a good thing but time will tell)

 

Toe brakes

 

Enough adverse yaw to ensure good rudder use

 

Sharp ,defined stall ( no mushing down tail low)

 

Spin tested ( must be recoverable even if we can't teach spins)

 

Can't think of any more but that's a good start,

 

Met

 

 

[David Isaac]

If it was viable, another party could get the IP rights and reproduce the Gazelle, but in today's market they may not be cost viable.

 

I like your ideal aircraft summary Mat. The sharp stall may be problematic, IMHO a good trainer will have large control surfaces for good demonstrable control effect including adverse yaw and a high lift wing (not like a Jab), these all go to a slow soft stall, unless you induce a sharp stall in the entry.

 

 

[metalman]

Yeh the stall thing is because I dislike aircraft that don't give a real warning that something's wrong, I flew a seabird seeker a while back and with the stick hard back you can drive either rudder pedal to the stops,,,it does absoluly nothing, that's a real worry , if it drops a wing what are you supposed to do,,,same with a 170 jab ,just mushers down tail low ,probably not actually stalled but there's no teaching moment in that

 

 

[dazza 38]

I liked flying the Gazelle, it was relaxing to fly since it is very easy to fly. When I was flying at Skyfox flight training in 1998, it was around the same time as Skyfox started production of the Gazelle as well as the TW skyfox. I visited the factory quite alot just to say hello. A friendly bunch of blokes. Anyway, I cant remember exactly, but a aircraft had to be produced from start to finish in 8 or 9 days so something like that to be profitable.I dont remember exactly the time frame, but it was very short.

 

PS- Our AUF rules were a bit stupid back then. A AUF pilot could fly the TW version of the skyfox, but they couldnt fly the Gazelle as it was too heavy with the nose wheel fitted. Gazelles also were well (And still are) loved by students as they were going solo in minimum time and progressing quickly through their training.

 

As for production now- I dunno, it probably would be easier to import the Kitfox LSA from the states. Especially while the dollar is strong.

 

 

[winsor68]

Wasn't there talk of a SE Qld based plan to put the Gazelle back into production?

 

Was in the last 12 months... Not sure how far or if it is going ahead.