What defines Ultralight V. LSA

[Guest nunans]

how can a carbon cub be classed as an ultralight ?theres no way it could come under the 600 kg limit with full fuel & two people .......????

I saw one flying under 24 reg two days ago wth a full load !

They fly with a mtow of 600 and not much usable weight. There are ALOT (probably majority at least) of ra rego aircraft which can't legally take off with full fuel and two aussie blokes on board. The cub crafter cubs are in the same boat. (ofcourse the aircraft is somehow stronger to the tune of an additional 50 kg if you fit some floats though?

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

They fly with a mtow of 600 and not much usable weight. There are ALOT (probably majority at least) of ra rego aircraft which can't legally take off with full fuel and two aussie blokes on board. The cub crafter cubs are in the same boat. (ofcourse the aircraft is somehow stronger to the tune of an additional 50 kg if you fit some floats though?

Yeah but only if the floats are covered by the special CoA, so dont be thinking of adding any fishing bobbing floats in the hope that you'll get 50Kgs for a few grams of additional

 

 

[Doug Evans]

Data from Flying

 

General characteristics

 

Capacity: 2

 

Length: 22.75 ft (6.93 m)

 

Wingspan: 34.25 ft (10.44 m)

 

Height: 9.25 ft (2.82 m)

 

Wing area: 171.9 sq ft (15.97 m2)

 

Aspect ratio: 5.2-1

 

Airfoil: USA35(B)

 

Empty weight: 932 lb (423 kg)

 

Gross weight: 1,320 lb (599 kg)

 

Fuel capacity: 24 gallons

 

Powerplant: 1 × CC340 Horizontally opposed piston engine., 180 hp (130 kW)

 

Propellers: 2-bladed CATTO composite propeller

 

Performance

 

Maximum speed: 123 kn; 227 km/h (141 mph)

 

Cruise speed: 104 kn; 193 km/h (120 mph)

 

Stall speed: 27 kn; 50 km/h (31 mph)

 

Service ceiling: 17,999 ft (5,486 m)

 

Rate of climb: 2,100 ft/min (11 m/s)

 

Wing loading: 7.37 lb/sq ft (36.0 kg/m²)

 

Thrust/weight: 7.33 per hp

 

 

[dazza 38]

Data from Flying

General characteristics

 

Capacity: 2

 

Length: 22.75 ft (6.93 m)

 

Wingspan: 34.25 ft (10.44 m)

 

Height: 9.25 ft (2.82 m)

 

Wing area: 171.9 sq ft (15.97 m2)

 

Aspect ratio: 5.2-1

 

Airfoil: USA35(B)

 

Empty weight: 932 lb (423 kg)

 

Gross weight: 1,320 lb (599 kg)

 

Fuel capacity: 24 gallons

 

Powerplant: 1 × CC340 Horizontally opposed piston engine., 180 hp (130 kW)

 

Propellers: 2-bladed CATTO composite propeller

 

Performance

 

Maximum speed: 123 kn; 227 km/h (141 mph)

 

Cruise speed: 104 kn; 193 km/h (120 mph)

 

Stall speed: 27 kn; 50 km/h (31 mph)

 

Service ceiling: 17,999 ft (5,486 m)

 

Rate of climb: 2,100 ft/min (11 m/s)

 

Wing loading: 7.37 lb/sq ft (36.0 kg/m²)

 

Thrust/weight: 7.33 per hp

This doesnt concern me as I will never be able to afford a Carbon Cub.If I could, I would by the Top Cub instead and enjoy the bigger pay load.Down side would be the VH rego of course.

 

 

[winsor68]

I believe they were Bolly props, approved by the factory but not included in the paperwork. Good job these little planes don't have to carry all this paperwork or they would never get off the ground.

Approved by which factory? Seems like a massive can of worms to me... Is the approval from ICP or elsewhere... Just asking about this aircraft because it is one I am familiar with... I noticed plenty of other inconsistencies which going strictly by the LSA rules potentially makes a LOT of aircraft no longer flying school approved... Unless CASA is prepared to cut the owners some slack...

 

The ICP site mentions only DUC propellers...

 

It’s possible to choose between two different engines:

 

Rotax 912 UL 2 - 80 Hp with two-blade prop “Duc” with adjustable pitch on the ground;

 

Rotax 912 ULS 2 - 100 Hp with three-blade prop “Duc” with adjustable pitch on the ground;

 

 

[Guest nunans]

Sorry wrong cub !

This is right one

 

Empty weight: 932 lb (423 kg)

 

Gross weight: 1,320 lb (599 kg)

 

Fuel capacity: 24 gallons

 

Powerplant: 1 × CC340 Horizontally opposed piston engine., 180 hp (130 kW)

Yep that's a carbon cub and it fits the ra rego if you're a jockey and you don't want to carry much fuel, but like I said this is kind of the norm in RA aircraft, there are very few that'll do 200kg pax and full fuel with a mtow of 544 or even the new ones at 600.

 

I've flown a sport cub (0200 powered version of above) and did a weight and balance at the time, they are a fantastic plane and luckily they fit in to RA rego making the owning more affordable, the buying however is a long way out of reach for me...

 

 

[Guest nunans]

Yeah but only if the floats are covered by the special CoA, so dont be thinking of adding any fishing bobbing floats in the hope that you'll get 50Kgs for a few grams of additional

Agreed about the fishing bobs, but the point i'm making is if the airframe and wings are good for 650kg when floats are hanging below (as is the CofA for the cubcrafters cubs) then surely the same airframe can safely fly at 650 with wheels to?? However I know legally this is not allowed.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Watch an upcoming legal case then nunans, I suspect you'll turn white when that little trick turns into a financial award involving possibly more than a million dollars!

 

 

[DWF]

The question was: "What defines Ultralight V. LSA?"

 

Ultralight aircraft are defined in the various versions of CAO 95.

 

They must have a MTOW not greater than 600kg, carry a maximum of 2 people and meet certain performance criteria.

 

Basically a LSA (Light Sports Aircraft) is a particular category of Ultralight as defined in AC21-41(0) [see Post #12].

 

A LSA is distinguished by its manufacture and certification rather than its performance (although LSAs must also meet certain performance criteria). LSAs must not be modified without the certifier's approval.

 

In a nutshell, without all the fine print. Does that help?

 

DWF

 

.

 

 

[dodo]

The question was: "What defines Ultralight V. LSA?"

Basically a LSA (Light Sports Aircraft) is a particular category of Ultralight as defined in AC21-41(0) [see Post #12].

 

In a nutshell, without all the fine print. Does that help?

 

DWF

 

.

But what is AC21-41(0), and how does that fit the CARs & CAOs.

 

dodo

 

 

[DWF]

But what is AC21-41(0), and how does that fit the CARs & CAOs.

 

dodo

You asked for it .....

 

[My comments are in italics.]

 

Document Set

 

2.1 The document hierarchy consists of:

 

(a) the Civil Aviation Act 1988 (the Act);

 

(b) relevant Civil Aviation Safety Regulations (CASRs);

 

© the Manual of Standards (MOS); and

 

(d) Advisory Circulars (ACs).

 

 

2.2 The Act establishes the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) with functions relating to civil aviation, in particular the safety of civil aviation and for related purposes.

 

 

2.3 CASRs establish the regulatory framework (Regulations) within which all service providers must operate.

 

 

2.4 The MOS comprises specifications (Standards) prescribed by CASA, of uniform application, determined to be necessary for the safety of air navigation. In those parts of the MOS where it is necessary to establish the context of standards to assist in their comprehension, the sense of parent regulations has been reiterated.

 

 

2.5 Readers should understand that in the circumstance of any perceived disparity of meaning between MOS and CASRs, primacy of intent rests with the regulations.

 

 

2.6 Service providers must document internal actions (Rules) in their own operational manuals, to ensure the maintenance of and compliance with standards.

 

 

2.7 ACs are intended to provide recommendations and guidance to illustrate a means, but not necessarily the only means of complying with the Regulations. ACs may explain certain regulatory requirements by providing interpretive and explanatory materials. It is expected that service providers will document internal actions in their own operational manuals, to put into effect those, or similarly adequate, practices.

 

 

Civil Aviation Orders support the CARs 1988 (Civil Aviation Regulations). They will be progressively removed as we move to the CASRs 1998.[CAOs were used to amplify the intent and means of complying with the CARs.]

 

[So you can expect that some time in the future CAO 95 will be replaced by one or more CASRs.]

 

 

AC21-41(0) is the Advisory Circular showing how CASR 21 Subpart H can be complied with.

 

CASR Part 21 subpart H deals with "Certificates of airworthiness (except provisional certificates of airworthiness) and special flight permits." [Including Light Sport Aircraft]

 

 

You can see AC21-41(0) at http://casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/rules/1998casr/021/021c41.pdf

 

 

As you can see it is all a bit of a can of worms but basically Advisory Circular 21-41(0) explains (?) the requirements of CASR 21H and how one can comply with them.

 

 

Here endeth the lesson.

 

 

Still confused? .... oh well, I did my best.

 

 

DWF

 

 

 

 

 

[dodo]

Thanks. As an explanation of the legislative framework, that was fairly straightforward.

 

But it does leave me wondering what justifies such a hierarchy? In my experience, most industries can operate quite safely with one or more Acts, and their subsidiary Regulations, Orders, and some ad-hoc explanatory publications where necessary.

 

thanks again,

 

dodo

 

 

[facthunter]

If you can understand it. We will redraft it. We're not happy till you're not happy. Nev

 

 

[Yenn]

DWF. It looks as if you have a good grasp of CASA. I find it just about impossible to follow on their web site. You can even type in a search for numbered reg and nothing comes up. It takes a lot of searching to ever find what you want. I can't see that it will ever get any better and I think facthunter just about nails it.