SIDS Inspection on Cessna aircraft

[dazza 38]

The SIDS inspection is for cessna aircraft made between 1946 to 1986. It is supposed to be implemented into the maintainance manuals as off April 2012.Final dead line is sometime 2014 for the initial inspection (inspections are reccuring). Even if no corrosion is found during the inspection.It is still going to cost a bit. A C150 is going to be cheaper than say a 185 for instance. But old airframes will generally have some corrosion.I believe that any corrosion if found must be removed &/ or treated. The problem is that there are some very cheap cessna's kicking around ATM. (Nothing to do with this thread). A C172 from a aeroclub in mid north NSW which is on the coast with a good amount of time remaning on the engine and fresh paint, sold for about $23 K. That is cheap.But it may turn into a expensive exercise once the SIDS inspection has been carried out. Just sayin, its not personal . Buyers beware.

 

PS- I suspect that the year 1986 was chosen because that was the final year Cessna made 100/200 series aircraft for a long while.( they were worried about being sued in the Yank litigation society that it had become).They started production again 12 years after production ceased in 1986.

 

 

[crazy diamond]

I think until the SIDS comes up it will be a cheap aeroplane, I have no idea what the cost will be of carrying out the inspection on the 100 series, sadly nor do most of the maintenance organisations, when I spoke to them about it they all said the same thing "sure, buy it then fly it, when sids comes up, bin it"... 14,000 hrs and living in Cairns, sea air and humidity etc certainly wouldn't be doing it much good but hey.

 

It sold, someone is gonna be having a ball in it for a while anyway :-)

 

 

[old pilot]

Hi dazza

 

I have owned many raa aircraft and ga as well and still have a 150 my lame has always checked out airframes very carefully for corrosion so SIDS wouldnt bother me at all as I assist with the annually so I can see just what he does and all lames shou

 

D have been doing the same for the astanomical amount they charge for a annual

 

 

[crazy diamond]

It's a C150 not a C650, shouldn't be too "astanomical"...???

 

I can't find it right now but I did see a link to one of the local outfits that pulled a C172 apart for a bloke that had picked up a "bargain", wasn't totally a bargain in the end.

 

 

[old pilot]

Hi but it still comes back to the lames not doing there job If the corrosion has got a hold they are there to do a job and that maintains an aircraft and obviously some havnt

 

 

[crazy diamond]

https://support.cessna.com/custsupt/contacts/pubs/ourpdf.pdf?as_id=37395

 

Content below from someone I guess would be considered an authority on the subject, this is what I got when I asked about it.

 

"Very corrosive environment I would be careful. Do you know if it has factory corrosion proofing? (Dark green primer on all skins)

 

If its an original airframe and has average care it could turn out to be expensive.

 

Look at the pictures here and that's what I would expect to see in such a machine ...

 

http://www.flyingfighters.com.au/index.php/cessnasids

 

I bet the owner of that 172 thought it to was a bargain!

 

I have no affiliation with Flying fighters, just using the pictures as a reference.

 

Is the owner prepared to allow you to remove all of the panels and take a good look? The wingtips need to be removed to see down the leading edge."

 

 

[dazza 38]

There are alot of variables.

 

Hi dazzaI have owned many raa aircraft and ga as well and still have a 150 my lame has always checked out airframes very carefully for corrosion so SIDS wouldnt bother me at all as I assist with the annually so I can see just what he does and all lames shou

D have been doing the same for the astanomical amount they charge for a annual

Thats good to hear Old Pilot. Not all aircraft are going to cost a mint.Sounds as though your 150 will be fine. Its not the inspection that is going to cost owners the most.It is what is found & the rectification work. Crazy Diamond has brought up a good point.Alot of production aircraft were not primed with Zinc cromate.(the dark green primer).It will be unfortunate but I suspect some aircraft will have corrosion that will cost more to rectify than what the aircraft is worth. Each individual aircraft will be different.

 

 

[ruffasguts]

Hi dazzaI have owned many raa aircraft and ga as well and still have a 150 my lame has always checked out airframes very carefully for corrosion so SIDS wouldnt bother me at all as I assist with the annually so I can see just what he does and all lames shou

D have been doing the same for the astanomical amount they charge for a annual

unfortnately no matter how good the aircraft has been maintained or how good a condition ,it has not been maintained IAW the SIDs document (eg remove engine mount for ndt inspection 10 yearly . at this time they recommend (NOT REQUIRE) an engine overhaul) so cost of compliance will be expensive even without any rectifications.But at this time only applicable to aircraft maintained to manufactures mainenance schedule and as Raaus requires aircraft to be maintained IAW manafactures schedule__________________?

 

Mick W

 

 

[ayavner]

Curious, is this a legal requirement for being able to own and operate a Cessna under this program? for example, is there anything wrong with buying one of these cheapies such as was listed the other day in the classifieds, presuming you are otherwise satisfied with it, just to go hooning around the training area or whatever to build up hours, as long as it isn't used for commercial ops?

 

I see quite a few that probably haven't gone through SIDS and engine is "on condition", for < 20K. Definitely NOT worth it to buy one of those with the idea in mind of an overhaul and completing the SIDS and all that, but again if it looks OK otherwise, seems like a good deal as long as the emptor caveats and all that...

 

thoughts?

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Is a fundamental point being missed here?

 

The maintenance requirements havent been written I pressume to provide an additional source of funding for LAME's but rather to keep an aeroplane from falling out of the sky when a bit of turbulance that is within the aircrafts POH limitations suddenly ends up causeing something important to fall off....

 

The concept of buy it and use it right up to the point that the maintenance requirements cant be avoided any further is to me a bit like reverse Lotto, you are guessing it will be Ok right to the drop dead date, and I'll bet that for a whole bunch of people that will be correct....but for some lucky winner.......

 

Seems to me there are enough things in aircraft that can kill us, ignoring another doesnt seem smart to me.....

 

Andy

 

 

[metalman]

as far as I can see ,the SIDS inspections will cost a motza even if everything is found to be good, wing removal ain't cheap !

 

 

[dazza 38]

Is a fundamental point being missed here?The maintenance requirements havent been written I pressume to provide an additional source of funding for LAME's but rather to keep an aeroplane from falling out of the sky when a bit of turbulance that is within the aircrafts POH limitations suddenly ends up causeing something important to fall off....

 

The concept of buy it and use it right up to the point that the maintenance requirements cant be avoided any further is to me a bit like reverse Lotto, you are guessing it will be Ok right to the drop dead date, and I'll bet that for a whole bunch of people that will be correct....but for some lucky winner.......

 

Seems to me there are enough things in aircraft that can kill us, ignoring another doesnt seem smart to me.....

 

Andy

I agree Andy, but I think the SIDS programme was implemented more so to cover Cessna's backside, rather than aircraft falling out of the sky.Cessna's don't normally fall out of the sky. Well strutted ones anyway.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Dazza some of those Photos that were on the FF website were a bit ugly to look at, especially as pressumably the enforcement time hasnt yet come around. If the picture of the wing rib were applied to multiple ribs then Id be keen to be looking at it on the ground and not flying it in the air..... An ass cover maneouver at the end of the day is only performed if there is a risk they are concerned about.....

 

Andy

 

 

[facthunter]

I've been fortunate? to have seen major corrosion, requiring unrivetting of lap joints and extensive sections of skin, and things like rear spar replacements. There was a major inspection of the underfloor area on strutted cessna's where the spar load is carried through and I have seen a few of them too, plus reskinning of the entire wing. There's a lot of work in this and it involves jigging and a lot of skill. I've seen stuff done better than new. so it can be done well. As said most of the cessna's don't have the chromate treatment.

 

My youngest saw the corrosion at the rear of a 140 cherokee wing and has decided to not ride in light aircraft at all. It was quite hard to detect but once you started poking around there, (if you know what you are doing) all the powder fell out of the lap joint and what was left would have no strength at all. Wafer thin and full of holes. A lot of this stuff is left out in the open in all seasons.

 

Experienced people know where to look. If you want one get an expert to do an inspection and the log books as well.

 

I've seen gazelle's with a lot of surface rust on the steel fuselage parts as they were not particularly well painted. That is on the outside. It could be happening on the inside as well. Most of your plane is structural, with no redundancy. Nev

 

 

[thommo]

DAZZA

 

A C172 from a aeroclub in mid north NSW which is on the coast with a good amount of time remaning on the engine and fresh paint, sold for about $23 K. That is cheap.But it may turn into a expensive exercise once the SIDS inspection has been carried out. Just sayin, its not personal . Buyers beware.

 

That aircraft you talk about had no engine time left and on condition. I looked at it. That's all they are worth.

 

 

[dazza 38]

DAZZAA C172 from a aeroclub in mid north NSW which is on the coast with a good amount of time remaning on the engine and fresh paint, sold for about $23 K. That is cheap.But it may turn into a expensive exercise once the SIDS inspection has been carried out. Just sayin, its not personal . Buyers beware.

 

That aircraft you talk about had no engine time left and on condition. I looked at it. That's all they are worth.

Thankyou Thommo, I must have got the engine time remaining mixed up with another C172 for sale ( there are a lot of them for sale ATM). I wouldn't even pay 23K for it with a TX engine. The reason is - Plane cost $23 K, a new engine ? I dunno maybe $35K. SIDS on a 172 that has spent alot of time on the coast? Who knows what that cost is going to be. My understanding is that SIDS must be completed by June 2014. That only leaves 16 months to go.

 

 

[crazy diamond]

Actually Dazza you are spot on, the C172 from the Hastings District Aeroclub had an engine OC, so you are right, a timex engine OC worth bugger all, but still people do buy them!

 

http://classifieds.aviationadvertiser.com.au/detail.php?id=2564

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Be worth more as parts.

 

 

[facthunter]

Some of the engines that have run" on condition" are (allegedly) more difficult (and expensive) to rebuild subsequently. This make logical sense. Also most of the manufacturers of engines are keen to get the "worked on' cylinders replaced with new standard ones. Prices and availability vary with type of engine. ie there are many variants of an 0-235 Lycoming and a large variation in price. An engine that has had a couple of overhauls already may run out of deck height and a new one be the only answer A lot of the components are pretty "tired" and subject to fatigue as well.Nev

 

 

[Mr Mal]

I have just finished discussing this with my LAME - I have an 83 172p going in for its annual in August. Under Schedule 5 maintenance these can be 'bumped' by the owner - having this noted in the airframe logbook. Having said that the LAME is under the obligation to maintain the aircraft to the best standard available - which happens to be the SIDS...... so it can be a case of finding a LAME who is sympathetic to a schedule.

 

Now having said that the LAME has indicated that he (and many others) would be willing to do the SIDS over several years. The good news is the newer the plane the less SIDS there are to do (as they identified cracking in earlier models and fixed it in later models). Many are inspections already done in the 100 hourly etc. The expensive ones are the ones that say "inspect for corrosion and fit kit x" regardless of condition..........

 

At this stage I am looking to spend 3-4k per year over and above to close out this requirement. Not bad considering the peace of mind it gives you.....

 

 

[bob.carlos]

G'day Guys, Just had the preliminary talk with my LAME about the SIDS requirements and the news is not good. I have a P model 182 which has been well maintained, I am the third owner and its been hangared for most of its life. Its done around 100 hours a year over its 36 years of life almost all of this as private flying.

 

I think the maintenance organisations are still coming to grips with the implications of the SIDS, and as they grow in experience the cost will go down, however I have been told to expect a bill of up to $60,000.

 

Clearly my pride and joy that I thought was worth at least $100,000 is now not worth that unless I get all the work done. I don't' blame any of the LAME's that have worked on the aircraft, as the inspections that were carried out just didn't look this deep into the frame as they are now required to. I don't expect any or many surprises, but I think I will have to raid the piggybank and keep working for a few more years than I had intended.

 

My question to the assembled experts is, will she be worth enough after she is SIDS compliant to justify the expenditure?

 

 

[dazza 38]

Sorry to hear about the potential Bill Bob. There are going to be a lot of paper weights around airfields in the future, 150, 152 and 172's. But 182 and bigger will be worth it I think. There are rumours that other brand of GA aircraft will also have there version if SIDS in the future.

 

 

[bob.carlos]

I agree Dazza, the other manufacturers will follow the leader, or the lawyers will follow them. In any event it is peace of mind, even though its a high price to pay for it. Thanks for your advice.

 

 

[facthunter]

Repair costs relate to the replacement value of your plane, not it's market value. 60K as a percentage is not a lot and won't buy you much of anything in the aviation environment. Make sure the work is done well and some corrosion proofing done. No-one expected these planes to be still flying 50 years later and a lot sit out in the open. Bad idea. even a bucket or lawnmower would not survive it. Nev

 

 

[David Isaac]

Bob, why is there an automatic expectation on $60k. Are there known problems?