Aircraft noise certification

[Guest ozzie]

Here we go again.

 

Singleton Council it seems just can't be part of the Global ICAO requirements and insists that each and every aircraft must satisfy their noise requirements. Whatever they are. They can't supply a noise level standard that has been set by council.

 

We recently changed our aircraft but not the type. C208. The aircraft are just two serial numbers apart in production. Both aircraft are certified under the same type certificate and this includes both ICAO noise requirements and Australian Airservices Noise certificate. So now we have to go through the expense of having an independent noise test done again.

 

Of course it all stems from that whinging bloody Llama Farmer.

 

Anyone else in this country having this problem by a local govt.

 

If the aircraft complies with global and federal noise levels can a local govt order additional noise testing?

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Tell them to go jump. They need evidence to prosecute you.

 

 

[Guernsey]

I would have thought that a Council would have some control at ground level but not have control of the air above, I may be wrong.

 

Alan.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Here is another crazy thing that the Llama farmer tried to swing. He tried to make us return to using only C185s. He reckons they are quieter than the turbines on take off.

 

 

[facthunter]

Alpaca people are the weirdest I have met. The Animals are OK it's just the people. Nev

 

 

[biggles5128]

I have an Alpaca to guard my lambs, he is very good at his job... never heard him complain once about aircraft noise.

 

 

[paulh]

I would have thought that a Council would have some control at ground level but not have control of the air above, I may be wrong.Alan.

In QLD councils have some powers to deal with noise emanating from land uses ie factories, repair shops, traffic on roads etc., and above a certain criteria the state govt via the EPA ( or used to be but who knows now with all the govt dept reshuffles) can bring in the heavy hand. But that is on the ground, ie a land use, they might be trying to control something ie aircraft noise whilst airbourne that they have no legal power to do so.

Be interesting to ask them under what authority are they attempting to impose restrictions and cause costs to an aircraft owner.

 

I wonder if the open exhaust V8 ski boat on the local lake has the same problems.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

We have coal trains running through the same council area about 9 klms away from our DZ, 140 wagons at 15 minute intervals. When the wind blows from that direction you can hear them quite clearly during the night and even during the day to a slightly lesser extent. When one gets a red light it's a 140 wagon drum solo not to mention the three diesels trying to get them back up to speed again. Not one of the councils along the route will try and make the private haulers put up any sound reducing boarding even though they just spent millions on adding another track plus not to mention trying to get them to cover the wagons to prevent all the coal dust fallout.

 

 

[old man emu]

Here we go again.Singleton Council insists that each and every aircraft must satisfy their noise requirements. Whatever they are. They can't supply a noise level standard that has been set by council.

We recently changed our aircraft .... certified under the same type certificate and this includes both ICAO noise requirements and Australian Airservices Noise certificate.

 

If the aircraft complies with global and federal noise levels can a local govt order additional noise testing?

Point 1. One cannot conduct a test to give a Pass/Fail result unless there is a Pass/Fail value to compare the test results against.

 

Point 2. I think that you are quite correct in believing that an Airservices Noise certificate would over-ride a Local Government condition of use.

 

Point 3. Usually it is the Complainant's task to collect the evidence to prove a complaint to a tribunal. In other words, The council must show a Court that there is a condition that has to be met, and then it must show that that condition has been broken. It is not very common for our laws to be written so that the Accused has to prove that no offence has been committed (example - handling proceeds of crime)

 

Old Man Emu

 

 

[facthunter]

Just tell them that increased restriction in a modified exhaust system would overheat the valves and want the complainant to be responsible if the engine fails as a result. Nev

 

 

[cooperplace]

Here we go again.Singleton Council it seems just can't be part of the Global ICAO requirements and insists that each and every aircraft must satisfy their noise requirements. Whatever they are. They can't supply a noise level standard that has been set by council.

We recently changed our aircraft but not the type. C208. The aircraft are just two serial numbers apart in production. Both aircraft are certified under the same type certificate and this includes both ICAO noise requirements and Australian Airservices Noise certificate. So now we have to go through the expense of having an independent noise test done again.

 

Of course it all stems from that whinging bloody Llama Farmer.

 

Anyone else in this country having this problem by a local govt.

 

If the aircraft complies with global and federal noise levels can a local govt order additional noise testing?

does local government regulate aviation? I would tell them to go jump as well

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

Over the years I've dealt with (read - come into conflict with) local councils a bit. If I want something I flood them with correspondence and point out their govt imposed requirement to respond in full within 28 days (this is exceptionally effective with CASA too by the way if you seek a dispensation or similar, as a max 28day response to anything is what they insist on as well).

 

However if a minor (and usually fairly toothless, unless you ultimately fail to defend your position legally, and if you do they usually capitulate well before the steps of the court) bureacracy like a local council is giving me the craps, I treat em like a troll. Just don't respond to anything they send or say, not even in the local paper. Silence is a powerful weapon, seldom used...

 

 

[metalman]

Hehehe,,,that's funny,,,,a C185 being quiet on take off,,,,I love that howl they make,,,,I even like watching the ground dwellers clutching at their ears as I roar overhead,,,,yeh I know I could wind of a few revs ,but damn they just sound so frigg3n good!

 

Bloody world has gone mad with all this ar5e kissing, big issue is when some sleazy developer fronts up and the council is already anti aircraft it's almost a done deal before they even hand over the bulging brown envelopes!

 

 

[lightstorm]

Try this!

 

This is free and is required to operate from certain airports.

 

We had to even get it done on a LSA imported from the USA before it could be put on the RAA Register.

 

https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/noisecertification/default.asp?

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

Met - letting the tips howl and rotary 'pilots' allowing blade slap to continue is considered to be poor operating by the rest of us who know that it isn't necessary and is simply a 'look at me' sign of immaturity. Have you heard of the fly neighbourly policy? Frankly, people with your attitude are a large part of the cause of non-aviation peoples' justified complaints...

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

A few replies to think about. Airservices is just a data base so they can contact you when someone complains about your 'big noisy blue plane'. Interesting that no complaint has come from Airservices. Maybe we should ask council to refer LLama farmer to Airservices complaints dept. This is really just another dick around by council or one paticular person in council to entertain the whims of continual whinger. I think the trick would be to find a bit of official paper that says that the certified acceptance of ICAO annex 16 blah blah is a once off test. Have a read of FAR part 36. gimmie a break.

 

 

[cooperplace]

Here we go again.Singleton Council it seems just can't be part of the Global ICAO requirements and insists that each and every aircraft must satisfy their noise requirements. Whatever they are. They can't supply a noise level standard that has been set by council.

We recently changed our aircraft but not the type. C208. The aircraft are just two serial numbers apart in production. Both aircraft are certified under the same type certificate and this includes both ICAO noise requirements and Australian Airservices Noise certificate. So now we have to go through the expense of having an independent noise test done again.

 

Of course it all stems from that whinging bloody Llama Farmer.

 

Anyone else in this country having this problem by a local govt.

 

If the aircraft complies with global and federal noise levels can a local govt order additional noise testing?

the other thing is to ask them to advise which section of the Local Government Act 9or equivalent) empowers them to make this request. There won't be any section allowing them to regulate aviation. So theyr'e ultra vires.

 

 

[metalman]

Met - letting the tips howl and rotary 'pilots' allowing blade slap to continue is considered to be poor operating by the rest of us who know that it isn't necessary and is simply a 'look at me' sign of immaturity. Have you heard of the fly neighbourly policy? Frankly, people with your attitude are a large part of the cause of non-aviation peoples' justified complaints...

Thanks for the flying lesson, although it was a tongue in cheek comment you should go public with your awesome lessons, maybe start at morrabbin where there's a restriction on using certain Cessnas , perhaps sit at the end of the runway collecting marks and then hold group classes , or you could grow a sense of humour , cya

 

 

[David Isaac]

It was a good laugh Matty. But seriously we were prohibited from operating two bladed C185s at Warnervale in parachute ops for that very reason (supersonic tip speed). Ask Ray, he would remember all the rules at Warnervale (watch his eyes roll, most of the rules were made because of him LOL). Even the three blader has to be wound back a bit as well in certain conditions. They sure are a damn site noisier than a bloody turbine.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

....although it was a tongue in cheek comment..... or you could grow a sense of humour , cya

There's nothing wrong with my sense of humour, I even have an "I love aircraft noise" sticker on my car And I'm glad your comment was flippant but how would I know? I don't see any winks or smileys. And the fact is I do live next door, by choice, to a very busy airport and there are plenty of immature 'look at me' pilots out there. There's one that does the bank run to/from out west of here every other day, and on alternate days the same plane also goes out west on a FIFO run. One day it screams and the other day it doesn't, just poor operating and he's been told about it more than once.

 

We have two surf lifesaving helicopters that operate daily, they have four turnabout operators each, one in each is a tosser and you'd swear they compete with each other to see who can slap loudest, and that's on descent to refuel when they're light and it's easiest to avoid slap.

 

The noise doesn't worry me personally except for the simple reason that I've seen so many airports and private strips close in my short life. I lived and worked down your way 25 years ago and used to fly to and from half a dozen strips in East Melbourne, all gone now, and it's so easy for flyers to have the attitude that the strips were there first and the people moved in so they should just put up with it. Well the fact is that the population is growing and the flying percentage is falling rapidly and so there's a perfectly logical reason to get rid of vast tracts of land used by a 'privileged' and reducing minority especially when they treat the burgeoning masses with derisive comments (even if they are tongue in cheek) and do nothing to reduce the noise when it's well known, even by the ignorant masses, that lots could be done.

 

The general public aren't as ignorant as some people would have them be. Most are well aware that most aero engines have no form of muffler or silencer on the exhaust while they get persecuted for having a 'sports' exhaust on their car. And it doesn't take a budding Einstein to notice the same plane flying on different occasions, at one time with the prop screaming and at another with it barely audible, they don't have to know why, they just know that it is.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

 

There ya go ozzie. The australian stanadard your looking for is in the doc. This was our noise study done VERY close to the takeoff path of the aircraft. I dont know if it helps you.

 

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Merv, who required you to do the noise study? Did you have to do it or was it just done by the council? Who paid? And were the results outside the certified standard? What was the outcome?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

.

 

Hi Ozz. The study was a requiremnt of the DA we submitted. We passed eith flying colors. It was an independent professional survey that we the club had to pay for.

 

In your case I would say you need to get the readings done at the complainants residence, out the front of his house, 208 can crack some noise when you are beside them at low speeds, but the noise drops considerably (from the ptop) as the speed increases so unless this guy is right beside the strip id say you would be ok. See the doc for acceptable levels under the Aussie standard.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Hey Motzy,

 

I thought you had existing use rights at Jaspers Brush, so why the DA?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Hey Dave. The airfield itself has existing use rights. The club had to submit a DA for the structures and the 'operation'.