central coast

[kgwilson]

Thanks Andy, I have read much of that info before.

And I hadn't. Very informative and logical. I witnessed a water landing of a mate in his hang glider. We'd been soaring a coastal ridge with no beach. He stalled just above the waves & dropped out of his harness & swam the few metres to shore. When we recovered the glider we put the whole lot in the boot of a Morris Minor.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Trike reality 101:- ...... Putting a trike down in water is something trike pilots will almost go to any extent to avoid... if the wheels hit the water you'll go nose over...when the wing nose digs into the water the nose moves with great force towards the pod which pushes the rigid control bar with approx equal force into your chest and your ribs...... the control bar is serious aluminium tube and has in most wings significant flying wire bracing....so think one or more ribs may well loose that argument!Those that have ditched and lived to tell from my recollection have dropped a wing tip in first and even then the trike and wing roll up into a ball that you have to try and escape from....There are a lot of flying wires on most wings to get tangled in as a result of serious wing deformation, let alone the helmet intercom leads and seatbelts and we have been told that there is a complete lack of understanding as to which way is even up for the survivors if they can get clear of the aircraft...........

Thanks Andy, what you have explained all makes terribly foreboding sense ... how wrong could I have been assuming they would land on water quite well. I had this sense you could hold them off to a very low speed, but even a low speed nose over would pull that bar back into you with terrible force. Poor souls, very sad.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Hitting water at a reasonable speed from any angle hurts. Not to mention the hydraulics effect as the water enters your body from from any available orifice. Any one watch the Bridge to Bridge ski race on tele last Sunday. Couple of skiers came unstuck and looked pretty shellshocked when they climbed back into the boat. Bet they were pretty sore and bruised the next day. Big difference to a controlled ditching and crashing. I'd avoid ditching if the option to crash on land was available. Pilot was also reported to be a very active member of the central coast life saving movement and ex 'nam vet. The photo of him showed him to be a pretty fit person dispite his age. Can't rule out any interference by the pax either. I wonder if it was a joy flight or a lesson. Doesn't the instructor normally sit in the back seat during a lesson and in the front during a joy flight?

 

 

[slb]

What upsets me is there seems to be very little in the way of investigation, unlike GA with the ATSB...

http://www.theherald.com.au/story/1344975/carl-carlsens-fatal-flight/?cs=305

 

....The investigation will centre on whether a fault caused the machine to stop working before it plunged from the sky.

 

Another news clip stated there were Aviation Investigators on site.

 

 

[jamel]

http://www.theherald.com.au/story/1344975/carl-carlsens-fatal-flight/?cs=305....The investigation will centre on whether a fault caused the machine to stop working before it plunged from the sky.

Another news clip stated there were Aviation Investigators on site.

And pigs might fly! I will believe that when I see it.

 

There have already been several incidents and fatalities this year and not a whisper!

 

Surely RAAus via its Board feels obligated to do something about this?

 

 

[turboplanner]

We've covered this subject over and over again. Expect no investigation other than one by police, which is based on providing the State Coroner with a cause of death, not cause of crash, and this report will not be made public.

 

The system almost certainly condemns future pilots to death when they repeat the same circumstances, but that's the system we have - well outside RAA or its board operations, and pretty much the same system as for rock fishermen

 

 

[Air Creation]

Your right Turboplanner... you can bet we will only see a cause of death will be disclosed by a Coroner.

 

We do need a more transparent system for accident findings, if we are going to improve the accident statistics of trikes in Australia.

 

This one was an RAA trike by the website for Microlight Adventures.

 

We all make choices of what we fly and many may dis-agree, but sadly Australia has the highest rate of double fatal accidents in trikes than any other country in the world.

 

Deepest regards to the families for their sad loss of loved ones.

 

 

[jamel]

We've covered this subject over and over again. Expect no investigation other than one by police, which is based on providing the State Coroner with a cause of death, not cause of crash, and this report will not be made public.The system almost certainly condemns future pilots to death when they repeat the same circumstances, but that's the system we have - well outside RAA or its board operations, and pretty much the same system as for rock fishermen

Turbo, I have read most of the forum and realise that the matter of investigations or lack thereof has been covered many times.

 

What I cannot understand is why RAAus cannot implement some sort of reporting system for the benefit of its members. Does the law prevent it from doing so? Is it because it might open itself up to litigation? It cant be because it doesnt have the funds!

 

It seems in almost every incident someone with type knowledge attends the scene, in this case the CFI from the local airfield. I bet he would have a pretty fair idea of what happened when he saw the aircraft? But in most cases we hear nothing! Even if there were only indirect recomendations made .

 

"Be aware of the nescessity of being able to glide to safety"

 

"Remember to retension prop bolts every 20 hours"

 

etc etc surely anything is better than nothing?

 

You seem to have been around for awhile! Is there anyway to get the system changed?

 

 

[turboplanner]

You raise some interesting questions.

 

1. I presume where RAA is called in to assist in an investigation, the technical person effectively is part of a police investigation and the information is not subject to release.

 

Certainly I know of no police releasing a finished report before they present their evidence to the Coroner, so you can attend the Coronial Inquiry if you can ever find out when it is on

 

and you can obtain Coroner reports/findings but again there is no attempt to make this process user friendly, which is bizarre since part of State Coroners' jobs is to try to ensure the

 

same thing doesn't happen again. I remember reading the police evidence from a Queensland fatal bus crash which was very detailed and pursued the evidence of a steering failure

 

all the way up the manufacturing trail to a mistake in heat treatment after it was forged. However, often, as in a recent fatal aircraft crash the Coroner is at cross purposes with the

 

information we want and the report generally is nothing like an ATSB investigation report. And as you can see RAA are no better off than we are, in getting a definitive report.

 

2. If the CFI from the local field attends, I can't see any impediment to him giving us a run down on what he saw and what he knows of the incident, and this has been done on this

 

forum, however that is not an official report, and he will usually be caught up in the Public Liability claim, so he has to be very careful about how far he can go, sometimes having to

 

hold back the light bulb cause we would all like to know.

 

There have been occasions where I've all but fought with police sergeants not just to release reports but to investigate some truck accidents more thoroughly, but all I got were inferred threats to keep out of it or else!

 

 

[jamel]

I realise we are never going to get an ATSB style of report, but I find it very hard to believe that RAAus does not have sufficent clout to be able to begin a process with the relevant authorities that would enable it to at least release "advice to members" after an accident.

 

Where there is a will there is normally a way!

 

I am sure there are several hundred trike jockeys at least who would happily pay at bit extra in fees so a staff member could follow this sort of thing up.

 

 

[turboplanner]

When you talk of RAA clout, it is one person from a recreational aviation group against the State of South Australia or the State of Victoria police force and their associated legislative procedures, so not even Coles, General Motors or BHP cracks that wall - that's what the problem is. It's not a matter of someone from RAA wandering over to police headquarters and saying "look chaps, fair's fair, we could learn something from your reports. Evidence is protected by Fort Knox type procedures because of the potential liability/harm it can do.

 

 

[Blueadventures]

When you talk of RAA clout, it is one person from a recreational aviation group against the State of South Australia or the State of Victoria police force and their associated legislative procedures, so not even Coles, General Motors or BHP cracks that wall - that's what the problem is. It's not a matter of someone from RAA wandering over to police headquarters and saying "look chaps, fair's fair, we could learn something from your reports. Evidence is protected by Fort Knox type procedures because of the potential liability/harm it can do.

I believe that RAA should conduct as full an investigation that they can and provide that report to the Police / Coroner for there information and consideration. Depending on the experience and qualifications of the RAA person doing the investigation the degree of expertness could be reasonably determined. IMHO regards Mike

 

 

[facthunter]

The main justification for investigations in aviation has always been the learning factor and PREVENTION of a similar occurrence. later. Unfortunately litigation has clouded that laudible aim.

 

I share the desire of all here to get information that is of use. When an aircraft crashes it is difficult to find the cause in many cases. Sometimes there is no definate cause identified. Regardles, this involves time and money. In airlines this happens though sometimes vested interests don't co-operate and may hinder the process. It requires some Pretty powerfull organisations to get the answers

 

The police have the authority and we only go there by invitation. Amongst our ranks I am sure that there would be many qualified persons, but think of the cost of getting them there in a timely fashion . having the components tested etc. We would never have the resources. Going to Coronial Inquests can be a draining and frustrating experience.

 

The biggest bang for our buck would be reporting of incidents, component failures and build up a knowledgebase that way. having a culture of SAFETY in our heads.

 

We lose the pilot and one passenger, (who is supposed to be an aware (of the dangers) person) and rarely anyone else on the ground so I guess that is why we are allowed to operate, with reduced restrictions. I think we have to realise that to be a fact of life (or death) as far as it goes. Don't get me wrong about safety. I reckon I'm as fixated on it as most or more than most are but it's a question of reality and cost at the end of the day. You make most of your own luck in this game. Nev

 

 

[jamel]

When you talk of RAA clout, it is one person from a recreational aviation group against the State of South Australia or the State of Victoria police force and their associated legislative procedures, so not even Coles, General Motors or BHP cracks that wall - that's what the problem is. It's not a matter of someone from RAA wandering over to police headquarters and saying "look chaps, fair's fair, we could learn something from your reports. Evidence is protected by Fort Knox type procedures because of the potential liability/harm it can do.

Thankyou Turbo, that answers my question as to why! there is obviously no joy to be gained going down that path!

 

So it is completely up to me to look after number one, meticulous maintenance and pre flight checks, following safety procedures and flight training to the letter, and reading as much as I can find, to learn from everyone elses experiences in the many forums from around the world.

 

I guess we can only mitigate as much risk as possible with what we have at hand.

 

 

[slb]

The BMAA used to produce an accident/incident report in a booklet with their magazine. Nowadays it is produced on-line. However it still keeps you current with letting you know what other pilots had 'forgotton' on their check-lists etc. close calls and other relevent information. It doesn't have to be an accident to learn from the information.

 

RAA have their own Accident Investigators (the last course I believe, was held in 2009). They are all equipped (or share within a group) with investigation kits that they take with them. They are there to assist the police, gather the information and report back to the RAA office.

 

Maybe they need to conduct some more courses at Canberra?

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

I did notice the spats had vertical winglets on them, these type of spats blur the line between simple fairing and structural component.

Are they Structural? More aerodynamic to help stop the trike base from yawing under the wing.

 

 

[turboplanner]

In this case it could be important to publish what caused the spat to depart.

 

The obvious lesson would be pinned nuts should be fitted, but equally the mounting area and mounting reinforcement such as washers or clamping material, and frp layering thickness increase in the mounting area, and even frp stiffening outwards could all be important to prevent future cases, since this is such a critical area with a pusher prop.

 

Or it could be that the spat was fractured by a ground incident.

 

 

[alf jessup]

I had to replace 2 inner brackets over the 6 years I had my 912 due to cracking on one half of the bracket, the outer spat is secured by the axle nut which is a T nut, once the 2 nyloc bolts, nuts & washers secure the spat to the nut it serves 2 purposes, securing the outer of the spat and stopping the axle nut un doing, the inner brackets are alloy with 2 nylocs securing the bracket to the axle assy and the outer 2 nylocs securing the spat to the bracket.

 

I find it strange that the spat would depart the trike, the inner bracket must have been cracked both sides outboard of the axle assy then the outer spat holes must of fractured & pulled through the washers for it to depart.

 

Only speculating IMO but giving others an idea how the spats are secured.

 

Cheers

 

Alf

 

 

[XP503]

Are they Structural? More aerodynamic to help stop the trike base from yawing under the wing.

Yes ''Aerodynamic'' was the word I was searching for, not structural

 

 

[CrayonBox]

How does the freedom of information act system work if trying to obtain data such as this from accidents? Is there a time frame involved? Are there past accidents that we would now data access to?

 

 

[turboplanner]

I hadn't thought of an FoI on the Police Departments, but they may well be exempt for the purposes of protecting evidence from release to the public.

 

You would not have to FoI the Coroners but they have one of the most obtuse filing methods I've ever seen making it near impossible for an outsider to search for a name and get the Coroner's report, which is a pity because most of the reports have lessons.

 

 

[jamel]

I had to replace 2 inner brackets over the 6 years I had my 912 due to cracking on one half of the bracket, the outer spat is secured by the axle nut which is a T nut, once the 2 nyloc bolts, nuts & washers secure the spat to the nut it serves 2 purposes, securing the outer of the spat and stopping the axle nut un doing, the inner brackets are alloy with 2 nylocs securing the bracket to the axle assy and the outer 2 nylocs securing the spat to the bracket.I find it strange that the spat would depart the trike, the inner bracket must have been cracked both sides outboard of the axle assy then the outer spat holes must of fractured & pulled through the washers for it to depart.

Only speculating IMO but giving others an idea how the spats are secured.

 

Cheers

 

Alf

I also find it difficult to believe a spat could come off in flight! although nothing is impossible! To my way of thinking something else may have happened, but it doesnt seem anyone in the know is going to be kind enough to provide information on any possible cause.

 

I would like to think that any pilot that had information that could possibly help or save someones elses life would share it! After all, what goes around comes around.

 

 

[REastwood]

It is also possible that, being over water, a bird may have either hit the spat, causing it to break off, or the witness saw a bird and not a spat. I know at this time of year in our area that you have to keep a good eye out for birds up to several thousand feet and they do like to congregate around water.

 

 

[Bluey]

The spat didn't come off in flight. Inspection of the recovered spat and aircraft do not support the one report of anything coming off the trike before impact. In fact two eyewitness accounts had the trike working normally.

 

Bluey

 

 

[CrayonBox]

The spat didn't come off in flight. Inspection of the recovered spat and aircraft do not support the one report of anything coming off the trike before impact. In fact two eyewitness accounts had the trike working normally.Bluey

So that leaves the question of why?