Aircraft Collision

[djpacro]

Interesting note on the subject here.

 

http://2009.gfa.org.au/Docs/ops/safety/GFA%20Safety%20CD/Documents/Safety%20Documents/Gliders%20Have%20Extraordinarily%20High%20Collision%20Rates.pdf

 

Add another one last weekend - I will post more when I see info on the ATSB website.

 

Near misses on the ground as well.

 

Use of radio per the rules for non-towered airports obviously an important consideration.

 

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/pilots/download/nta_booklet.pdf

 

And a further thought (separate from the above) don't line up on a runway and wait there for many minutes with your back to potential traffic - turn around and have a good look before rolling i.e. don't assume that everyone has radio or uses it correctly.

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

Spot on DJP, we operate at a very bust non towered AD and lookout is paramount.Pilots inevitably don't see every aircraft, but if they are not actively looking and adopting regimented lookout patterns then this is unforgivable. I don't rest if I know one is in threat area and I haven't got a visual.

 

A common one I see is pilots in high wing aircraft fail to present at 45degrees at the threshold holding point, thereby blanking the view of final and late base before line up. It's a regular occurrence and there have been many "discussions" over the years. Best not blurted out over the radio though.

 

Another is pilots unfamiliar with airfields and published contra cct operations, barging downwind or base in the opposite direction to cct direction.

 

Finally the mid field crosswind joiner, cutting off existing downwind traffic with poor lookout again the culprit.

 

Lookout and live should be the Mantra of every pilot in VFR operations.

 

 

[nomadpete]

Thanks, DJP, for helping bridge the gap between gliding and noisy aircraft. In my opinion, there is a serious (unaddressed) risk associated with the present tendency for each camp to deny the existence of the other. For instance, I have had trouble getting anyone to seriously listen at a local gliding club when I tried to raise the issue of a popular landmark which is well known the gliding fraternity (sometimes get a good thermal there) but nobody was aware that it was also the start point for ILS practice at another local air port. Think of it - gliders concentrating on their thermal, passing through the very same air at 4000 feet, as a big, fast twin is starting his ILS approach (his head under the hood). Compound that with the ILS guy would be on his airport frequency and the glider on the Unicom frequency. It makes the hair stand up on the back of my head just thinking about it.

 

If you think that an ultralight is a bit hard to see, try looking for a glider - unless you catch them at a certain point of a turn they are invisible. And gliders rarely are even aware of an Area frequency although they are very often over 5000 feet.

 

PeterT

 

 

[Sapphire]

Gliders thermalling on downwind is a big problem. They run out of lift and are forced to return for a landing, but a big thermal on downwind saves the day and another $45 tow. Talked to one RFD pilot and he had the windscreen momenartily filled with a glider. Complain about it and you get the ususal ho hum response, nobody died [today]

 

 

[nomadpete]

I would be suprised if thermalling on downwind would be a common thing - I know that at our club it will bring an immediate "counselling" by the CFI or anyone who saw it. Besides, what was a RFD pilot doing in circuit that close to the strip? Gliders are pretty close to the strip when on downwind. Anyway, although this is directly relatable to "Accidents and Incidents", all this really belongs on the "Gliding" forum, doesn't it? Back where only gliding folk will see it ;-)

 

 

[Sapphire]

I would be suprised if thermalling on downwind would be a common thing

 

be surprised

 

 

[facthunter]

Get a thermal first. What if you really need one? Nev

 

 

[nomadpete]

Get a thermal first. What if you really need one? Nev

Then you land, of course. You already have a suitable landing area selected if you drop to 1000 feet.

 

Alternatively you could get a RAAus license and a noisy aeroplane

 

 

[nomadpete]

I would be suprised if thermalling on downwind would be a common thing

be surprised

Sapphire,

Are you picking on my spelling, or my expectations?

 

 

[facthunter]

So you stay above 1,000 feet till you have one? ( suitable landing area).. Nev

 

 

[djpacro]

Or a self-launching glider. The one with the jet engine makes much more noise than anything I fly.

 

ATSB weekly reports take about 3 weeks to appear so more later.

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Besides, what was a RFD pilot doing in circuit that close to the strip? Gliders are pretty close to the strip when on downwind.

Landing?A glider doing a normal circuit should not be a problem for a powered aircraft at any point in the circuit. Gliders tend to be a lot lower, not to mention in most cases landing adjacent to the runway. It is only a problem when someone chooses to do something out of the ordinary that there will be a conflict!

 

 

[naremman]

I would be suprised if thermalling on downwind would be a common thing - I know that at our club it will bring an immediate "counselling" by the CFI or anyone who saw it. Besides, what was a RFD pilot doing in circuit that close to the strip? Gliders are pretty close to the strip when on downwind. Anyway, although this is directly relatable to "Accidents and Incidents", all this really belongs on the "Gliding" forum, doesn't it? Back where only gliding folk will see it ;-)

I reckon that the incident that Saphire was referring to with the RFDS pilot would have had a fair probability of occurring at Narrogin. Did a fair bit of flying there years ago and communication between power and glider components was at the bottom end of the spectrum, and respect was at the nadir.

 

Can remember doing some circuits in a Tiger Moth at Narrogin and was confronted with a glider thermaling mid downwind at circuit height. As we were just about to meet head on I stood the Tiger on a wingtip with a right turn, presenting a nice dirty underside of the fuse and wings nearly vertical. Given the somewhat startled look on the pilots face as we passed at close range, I doubt that he was not aware until the last moment that he was sharing airspace with another aircraft. A potential job for a dry cleaner.

 

I have done the vast majority of my flying in country WA, and every airstrip is non controlled. I have always firmly advocated that a pair of eyes and correct adherance of circuit proceedures is the greatest asset in safe operations, and a radio is an adjunct to safety. I would far rather sight an aircraft in the circuit where I would anticpate seeing it, rather that be given a running commentary when the principal focus is being given to the radio.

 

 

[nomadpete]

OK, you've dragged me back into the dialogue to justify my comment. How about NOWADAYS ?

 

I confess when I started out gliding, my instructors first words once we were airborne were "Turn that bl**dy thing off - the chatter annoys me". So the radio went off. But he still didn't let me consider taking a thermal once we were close to the circuit. Maybe other clubs have a different culture. There will always be the occassional cowboy (or cowgirl?) in any kind of aircraft and it is up to each of us to have a word with them when we see them doing something silly.

 

NOWADAYS we don't let thermalling happen in the circuit, and discourage it anywhere close to the circuit.

 

 

[naremman]

OK, you've dragged me back into the dialogue to justify my comment. How about NOWADAYS ?I confess when I started out gliding, my instructors first words once we were airborne were "Turn that bl**dy thing off - the chatter annoys me". So the radio went off. But he still didn't let me consider taking a thermal once we were close to the circuit. Maybe other clubs have a different culture. There will always be the occassional cowboy (or cowgirl?) in any kind of aircraft and it is up to each of us to have a word with them when we see them doing something silly.

NOWADAYS we don't let thermalling happen in the circuit, and discourage it anywhere close to the circuit.

Sound and commedable comments Pete. When we all get onto the same page of the safety manual we improve the chances of a safe outcome. One of the first comments my CFI made to me when I started flying was: "safety is no accident".

 

Whilst I raise Narrogin as an example, it would not be unique in Australia with its mix of operations. Permanent glider and power operations, with a good numbers of aircraft coming through on navs, and throw a RFDS PC-12 in for good measure, it is always a challenge for all aspects to operate harmoniously.

 

Given the extensive activity of the RFDS in country WA, when one is flying near an airstrip of a town with a hospital you have to be always mindful of having a PC-12 in the circuit at anytime. The airmanship of the RFDS pilots is exceptional, but in return they deserve out respect and support.

 

 

[nomadpete]

My posts above are all related to the type of safety culture that develops (human factors).

 

Someone recently commented that other operators around him are behaving predictably and safely for 99% of the time.

 

Before accepting that as being OK, work that statistic out: If he has flown 500 hours, then one percent of that time is five hours. Did he realise that he was accepting five hours of operating in highly hazardous situations? The odds start to stack up against us.

 

Risk minimisation requires all of us to be ever vigilant for those brief hazardous moments. They erode our safety margins. And to do our bit to foster the right culture at our clubs.

 

Incidentally it has been nearly 20 years since I first learnt to glide, and nowadays nobody would consider turning the radio off. Back then the radio was not used much. Even now a radio is only be there to assist our situational awareness, but never the less it is vital when things get busy. Our gliding strip is not used by other aircraft, but there can be a lot of activity at times.

 

Back in my first solo hours I got a reprimand (& deserved it) for thermalling on the dead side of the circuit area - even though all our gliders and tug were accounted for on the ground, and there was no sign of other aircraft passing through the area. So that led me to believe that thermalling anywhere near the circuit would be firmly stopped by any gliding club. This culture has not changed at our gliding club and I would hope that any observed instances would be reported at least to the CFI of the gliding club concerned. It's hard enough staying out of the way of people making honest mistakes without having to watch out for those deliberately doing the wrong thing. I am amazed to see the many creative ways that pilots do a circuit. No matter whether they are RPT, Chopper, GA, Recreational or glider. I know I'm biassed, but I feel that of all them, the gliders are generally most predictable in circuit because once there, they are committed to their landing. No option to go around if it doesn't look quite right on final.

 

Anyway, the first post on this thread was all about gliders having a bad record for mid air collissions- generally during competitions. Not a hazard to noisy aeroplanes.

 

Our biggest aviation safety blind spot is the same as the one that motorists suffer - "It couldn't happen to me - I know what I'm doing"

 

 

[Ultralights]

my closest encounter with a glider, 8500 ft above Lithgow, west of Sydney. i was tracking west, no idea where he was going, how could he maintain a hemispherical level operating up there? , no mention of traffic on the radio either. lot of IFR traffic departing bankstown heads that way as well.

 

 

[jakej]

Or a self-launching glider. The one with the jet engine makes much more noise than anything I fly.ATSB weekly reports take about 3 weeks to appear so more later.

You should hear the one I wired up at Waikerie - sweeeet !!

 

 

[jakej]

Should have added - it has 3 jets

 

 

[Sapphire]

I reckon that the incident that Saphire was referring to with the RFDS pilot would have had a fair probability of occurring at Narrogin. Did a fair bit of flying there years ago and communication between power and glider components was at the bottom end of the spectrum, and respect was at the nadir.Can remember doing some circuits in a Tiger Moth at Narrogin and was confronted with a glider thermaling mid downwind at circuit height. As we were just about to meet head on I stood the Tiger on a wingtip with a right turn, presenting a nice dirty underside of the fuse and wings nearly vertical. Given the somewhat startled look on the pilots face as we passed at close range, I doubt that he was not aware until the last moment that he was sharing airspace with another aircraft. A potential job for a dry cleaner.

 

I have done the vast majority of my flying in country WA, and every airstrip is non controlled. I have always firmly advocated that a pair of eyes and correct adherance of circuit proceedures is the greatest asset in safe operations, and a radio is an adjunct to safety. I would far rather sight an aircraft in the circuit where I would anticpate seeing it, rather that be given a running commentary when the principal focus is being given to the radio.

Exactly right, it was Narrogin. The bitumen strip is a hill and you cant see what is coming and radio doesnt go through ground. Had too many close calls with gliders and tugs-a dangerous place to fly.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

After reading all this I don't understand why the majority of gliders are white.

 

 

[Sapphire]

After reading all this I don't understand why the majority of gliders are white.

Any colour other than white, and a plastic plane would start to melt in the sun. Don't buy any composite a/c otherwise. Maybe can get away with yellow but black would would give you a new aerodynamic shape.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

In the UK, we use something called a Standard Overhead Join procedure, which works pretty well as far as I have seen over the last few years, this entails the arriving aircraft flying overhead the site at a nominal 2,000 feet and announcing his preence to all other traffic on the prescribed frequency, or the air / ground radio channel for that site, ( if non - controlled ) the visiting aircraft then positions dead side of the runway in use, in the correct sense to the circuit in use, be it right or left hand.

 

The visitor descends on the dead side to 1000 feet Or,. . . the published circuit height for that particular site,. . . . and does not enter "Live Side" until he is at 1,000 feet ( or published circuit height) and then he enters crosswind across the runway numbers at the opposite end of the active runway, NO FURTHER OUT THAN THIS to ensure the "Climmb - Out zone is maintained clear.

 

the pilot then joins the downwind leg and around halfway along,. . . .and advertises this on the radio. This way, everyone else in the circuit is aware of where he is. The pilot carries out his base, and final turn, knowing where everyone else is on the pattern, and there's no problem. If he has slower traffic ahed, he simply slows down, or extends the downwind leg a bit. . . .

 

I have to be honest, I've flown many hours on Australian territories, but I honestly can'at remember what we used to do at non controlled airfields in the early 1970s, perhaps someone can bring me back up to speed on how this is accomplished safely nowadays. ?

 

Having flown in the USA, I'm totally appalled at the way they like to join "oN THE 45" at 45 degrees to the downwind leg, . . . . it's no wonder their accident rate is so high IMHO.

 

When I was flying at Berwick ( Vic) we used to simply join and call directly over the runway, and call " Over the top at 1500, joining for 12 or 30", and just do it. . . . . but the traffic was so sparse that it didn't really make any difference back then. . . . .

 

Anyone like to update Phil ? ? ?

 

 

[Admin]

I don't think Berwick has been around for close to 30 years...it was a very busy area collectively for aircraft with Berwick, Cranbourne and Pakenham...which is all housing now, but individually each field struggled as Phil says, the traffic was sparse, at each one of them

 

 

[Sapphire]

I've seen a/c come from all directions, vertically and horizontally at unlic non controlled strips. Some from a different broadcast location. The Kamikaze ones get in first.