Aircraft Collision

[M61A1]

Anyone like to update Phil ? ? ?

Here, have a link to a gummint document.http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/pilots/download/nta_brochure.pdf

 

 

[DWF]

If you would like a more in depth discussion on the subject, have a look at these:

 

CAAP 166 -1(1) Operations in the vicinity of non-towered (non-controlled) aerodromes

 

 

and

 

CAAP 166-2(0) Pilots’ responsibility for collision avoidance in the vicinity of non-towered (non-controlled) aerodromes using ‘see-and-avoid’

 

 

Happy reading.

 

 

DWF

 

 

Be alert! (Your country needs more Lerts.)

 

 

 

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

If you would like a more in depth discussion on the subject, have a look at these:CAAP 166 -1(1) Operations in the vicinity of non-towered (non-controlled) aerodromes

 

and

 

CAAP 166-2(0) Pilots’ responsibility for collision avoidance in the vicinity of non-towered (non-controlled) aerodromes using ‘see-and-avoid’

 

Happy reading.

 

DWF

 

Be alert! (Your country needs more Lerts.)

Above Doco's live on our student table at the school- compulsory reading like all AIP's and CAAP's

 

 

[derekliston]

Whilst I agree with the reasoning for "plastic" aeroplanes being white, there is or was a maroon Lancair in Queensland. I was at a fly-in where it was parked alongside a white one and if you touched the skin of each of them, there would have been about a 30degree difference in temperature, almost sufficient to burn. There are also a few silver ones around.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Thanks for the reading material guys. . . .

 

Phil

 

 

[Bandit12]

Thanks for the reading material guys. . . .Phil

Yep, if you really don't like someone, point them in the direction of our official aviation governance documents.......

 

 

[M61A1]

Yep, if you really don't like someone, point them in the direction of our official aviation governance documents.......

Aww c'mon, it was only a pdf of 2 page pamphlet with a picture of acceptable circuit joining procedures at uncontrolled aerodromes.

1 picture=1000 words.(apparently)

 

 

[Bandit12]

The 2 page pamphlet is fine - sending someone to the original documentation like CAAPs is just plain mean

 

 

[DWF]

The 2 page pamphlet is fine - sending someone to the original documentation like CAAPs is just plain mean

Bandit.

 

The CAAPs are a brief (for CASA) explanation of how to do it.

 

Would you like me to point you in the direction of the Act and Regulations?

 

DWF

 

 

[Bandit12]

Bandit.The CAAPs are a brief (for CASA) explanation of how to do it.

Would you like me to point you in the direction of the Act and Regulations?

 

DWF

Been there and done that, hence my distaste for their ability to make what should be straightforward an absolute mess....I'm a big fan of the Visual Flight Guide, at least that is readable.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

The 2 page pamphlet is fine - sending someone to the original documentation like CAAPs is just plain mean

Thanks Bandit, . . . . .

 

In the UK we have something called the ANO ( Air Navigation Orders ) Our club copy is kept outside, we've mounted the gravity feed water tank on top of it. . . . .

 

Mind you, after a quick scan thru a few hunderd pages of the Aussie documents, I still didn't sight the actual radio frequency you use for "UNICOM", is it still 119.1 which we used when I were a lad in the outback in't 70s ?

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Interesting ( slightly thread- connected ) situation occurred a year or so ago whilst I was a tower ( Air / ground radio ) volunteer radio op at a local licnsed airfield where both Gliders and GA operated for some time without many problems.

 

This particular sunday afternoon, the wx was beautiful ( hard to believe in the UK I know... ) and I had a C-310 on a five mile final for the ONLY runway ( 26L ) which had a parallel runway ( 26L/grass) used by the gliderologists.

 

The C-310 was around 200 metres from the boundary fence when a glider, using 26 Right hand circuit, turned final, but overshot the centreline of the grass and ended up directly ahead of the heavier GA aircraft which was, by then around a couple of hundred feet behind him.

 

The Cessna commander reacted brilliantly ( IMHO ) and reefed his aircraft off to the left to miss the glider, ( only bloody just. . .) and initiated a go-around. I asked the glider pilot what he thought he was doing, and why he hadn't called "Final" . . . . he said that "GLIDER PILOTS DON'T HAVE TO CALL FINAL"

 

Sadly, . . .we appear to have a "Them and us" philosophy which seems hard to understand at a multi-discipline airfield.

 

I have, throughout my career, found that SOME glider pilots appear to believe that they are a superior breed to others. This is a shame, . . . I personally have over 200 hours in various gliding appliances, and I never developed this attitude ( I hope )

 

Dunno whether this problematic attitude exists in the land of OZ. . . .

 

 

[facthunter]

It comes after years of APDS. (Acquired Power Deprivation Syndrome). SYMPTOMS... "I'm landing, Nothing else matters" Maybe it's a reasonable attitude (under the circumstances).. Nev

 

 

[M61A1]

It comes after years of APDS. (Acquired Power Deprivation Syndrome). SYMPTOMS... "I'm landing, Nothing else matters" Maybe it's a reasonable attitude (under the circumstances).. Nev

Problem is, it could be the difference between landing at your place of choice, after communicating your intentions, or landing in pieces where ever you happen to fall, amongst the other bits of aircraft that didn't know you were there.

 

 

[facthunter]

In my experience Radio work is abbysmal generally. I can't recall anyone responding to a request for details of their present position at small airports. they just clam up.( RAA and GA.) Perhaps the mental effort required is too challenging. You have to actually know where you are in relation to the field Oh AND your height too. Nev

 

 

[M61A1]

In my experience Radio work is abbysmal generally. I can't recall anyone responding to a request for details of their present position at small airports. they just clam up.( RAA and GA.) Perhaps the mental effort required is too challenging. You have to actually know where you are in relation to the field Oh AND your height too. Nev

I would have to agree, while I know my radio work it not perfect, I try to let others know where I am, even if the field is not a ctaf. I heard one the other day, I was about 10 miles to the north and heard " arrrr, xxxxx field traffic, glider ( no ID), arrrr, about arrrr, 20 k's arrrr west, inbound, should arrive in about 20 minutes". I guess I knew he was somewhere not conflicting with me, but made me feel much better about my radio procedures.

I have flown (2 aircraft in loose formation) into their field before, they did make a point of telling us that our radio calls were clear and concise.

 

As far as knowing where you are, I would hope that if your are flying, you would have a bit of an idea where you are and your altitude.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Just to throw in a comment on thread two contained in the overall thread.

 

Regarding white composites.

 

It's not as simple as you think.

 

Some modern composites can cope with the heat of being painted any colour. Vinyl esters tend to be more temp stable than the epoxy or polyester.

 

Some epoxies are made highly stable by post-curing (a heating process done after initial curing). As proof of this the cowls of jabs get very hot when the engine is run but you don't see the cowls drooping all over the place every time they are used.

 

You really have to find out about the composite used, how it's been manufactured and what recommendations the manufacturer has.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

In my experience Radio work is abbysmal generally. I can't recall anyone responding to a request for details of their present position at small airports. they just clam up.( RAA and GA.) Perhaps the mental effort required is too challenging. You have to actually know where you are in relation to the field Oh AND your height too. Nev

That's interesting in itself Nev. . . when you consider that a quick press of a button on the SuperIpadMovingColourmapGPS thingy, and it will instantly give your position, relative bearing to any station and height / altitude or Flight level in any language with musical accompaniment of your choice. . . .. so I wonder why the problem with position reporting in our super high tech age . . . ??

 

 

[djpacro]

From the ATSB weekly report:

 

As the Cessna 150 aircraft touched down, the Grob G103 glider, on approach to the same runway, collided with the upper surface of the aircraft. The Grob sustained substantial damage and the Cessna sustained minor damage. The investigation is continuing.

At Tocumwal on 9th March.

[kaz3g]

Thanks Bandit, . . . . .Mind you, after a quick scan thru a few hunderd pages of the Aussie documents, I still didn't sight the actual radio frequency you use for "UNICOM", is it still 119.1 which we used when I were a lad in the outback in't 70s ?

126.7 is the Unicom frequency. 122.5 and 122.7 are commonly gliding frequencies.

 

119.1 will get you talking to Coldstream, Phillip Island and Swan Hill in Victoria from memory.

 

Way outback the FIA is the holy grail.

 

Kaz

 

 

[kaz3g]

I would have to agree, while I know my radio work it not perfect, I try to let others know where I am, even if the field is not a ctaf. I heard one the other day, I was about 10 miles to the north and heard " arrrr, xxxxx field traffic, glider ( no ID), arrrr, about arrrr, 20 k's arrrr west, inbound, should arrive in about 20 minutes". I guess I knew he was somewhere not conflicting with me, but made me feel much better about my radio procedures.I have flown (2 aircraft in loose formation) into their field before, they did make a point of telling us that our radio calls were clear and concise.

As far as knowing where you are, I would hope that if your are flying, you would have a bit of an idea where you are and your altitude.

I did a lot of gliding at Euroa and Benalla in the 1970s and managed about 1000 flights without busting anything. I also did my PPL at Benalla.

 

I have flown into BLA a couple of times in the last few months and always found the GCV guys helpful and courteous. They usually have a gliding advisory running on the CTAF and are happy to share their grass strips with my Auster when I ask.

 

Gliders, like a number of antique aircraft are not required to carry radio at many airfields. When they do, they are low power and run off gel packs or nicad batteries with limited life. Rule No. 1.... See and avoid.

 

At TOC a few weekends ago, I was disappointed to see the glider tug taking off to the north and doing a climbing left hand turn beneath the active aerobatic box with publicised activity down to 500 AGL. Just didn't seem good to me when power circuits are right hand anyway and that direction was available to the tug in the circumstances.

 

I know I kept my head down when I departed not wanting an angry Pitts doing its best to fornicate with my Auster.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Phil Perry]

126.7 is the Unicom frequency. 122.5 and 122.7 are commonly gliding frequencies.119.1 will get you talking to Coldstream, Phillip Island and Swan Hill in Victoria from memory.

 

Way outback the FIA is the holy grail.

 

Kaz

Thank you Kaz. . . . very useful info.

 

Phil

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Interesting note on the subject here.http://2009.gfa.org.au/Docs/ops/safety/GFA Safety CD/Documents/Safety Documents/Gliders Have Extraordinarily High Collision Rates.pdf

Add another one last weekend - I will post more when I see info on the ATSB website.

 

Near misses on the ground as well.

 

Use of radio per the rules for non-towered airports obviously an important consideration.

 

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/pilots/download/nta_booklet.pdf

 

And a further thought (separate from the above) don't line up on a runway and wait there for many minutes with your back to potential traffic - turn around and have a good look before rolling i.e. don't assume that everyone has radio or uses it correctly.

You assume very correctly there sir,. . . . I often volunteer to operate Air / Ground radio at a couple of local airfields, if I'm not flying / making a living on various weekends, and I DO tend to see quite a few pilots who are either, not that well trained in runway etiquette, or are just plain stupid, when they sit on a threshold, particularly on One specific field that I work, which has a single 1250 metre hard strip,. . . and then begin to carry out their pre takeoff and runup checks, which, as most pilots should be aware, should ALL have been completed BEFORE they crossed the "Hold" line and entered the runway threshold reservation. This happens at least a couple of times per day in the busy season, and there isn't a lot I can do as a simple Air/Ground operator ( not ATC ) to get them to hurry it up.

 

( In the UK, an Air / Ground operator, is only legally allowed to say things like . . . good morning Sir, the QFE Advisory is. . . . etc. . . everything else ESPECIALLY any kind of "instruction", or anything which could be construed as an instruction is strictly VERBOTEN - Information only. )

 

Last weekend, a twin pilot was so annoyed at what was going on, after he'd called a six mile final, and then this other aircraft had wandered onto the threshold and sat there reading the complete works of William Shakespeare, so that the twin had to initiate a go around, and made a silly statement by flying VERY low over the offending aircraft. I can understand his frustration, but that was a bit daft. The offending machine finally rolled when the twin was already established on left BASE for another attempt ! ! ! there are some very silly and or rather self important people out there sometimes, but WHY oh why do some seem to make it deliberately difficult for others ? ?.

 

I echo DJP's comments about making sure that final approach is clear befor entering the threshold of any runway, and sitting at 45 degrees to the approach whilst you go through your ground checks is a darned good way of doing this. . . but when there is a radio bloke on duty, this should make things a lot easier. But sadly, it seems . . . not always.

 

Phil

 

 

[dutchroll]

.....when they sit on a threshold. . . and then begin to carry out their pre takeoff and runup checks....

Well that's just bloody appalling airmanship. The same principle applies at uncontrolled fields as it does at controlled fields. You do not enter an active runway unless you are actually ready to takeoff and your engine runup (where required) and checks are complete. These blokes need their heads knocked together, honestly.

 

 

[derekliston]

Hat e to say it but all of the above applies in every other aspect of life too. There are too many people who either don't read the rules, think they don't apply to them or are just happy to ignore them!