Aircraft Collision

[quentas]

The offending machine finally rolled when the twin was already established on left BASE for another attempt ! ! ! t

He must have stalled it? lol

 

 

[boingk]

Not funny quentas... as some may know I have a Continental A-65-8 powered aircraft. In other words, it requires a hand start. I once stalled it at the far end of a strip before the taxi back and it would not restart! The following radio call ensued:

 

"Goulburn traffic, Minicab 0825 engine out on threshold runway zero-four, exiting aircraft to remove manually. Goulburn traffic."

 

Seriously embarrassing. Next time you want a workout try pulling your aircraft down a mile-long runway! Thankfully all craft in the circuit were back on the ground by that time, though, or it might have been a bit more interesting!

 

In all seriousness though, there are some shocking radio and other procedures out there. My favourite at Temora was the fellow giving ~30 second approach calls, with as many confused pauses and "um's" as a stoned teenager, while everyone was busy in the circuit! I ended up pipping him off the radio to make my late downwind call and thankfully I was able to land before he made another approach call.

 

- boingk

 

 

[quentas]

The end result is make sure your aircraft is ready to roll when you have entered the runway including runups completed. That includes checking throttle closed to check the motor will still idle. It always puzzles me why some pilots take their time at the threshold doing whatever, seemingly unaware of anyone else in the circuit.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

You DO hear some "Interesting" radio traffic, especially on a busy weekend, where the "30 second call" or WORSE, is really annoying when several pilots need to call inbound or circuit position, and I regularly hear pilots who have OBVIOUSLY never had taken even a small amount of R/T training, ( let alone hold any kind of radio licence ) These are tho ones who can cause havoc at a fly - in event.

 

At a summer fly - in event we had a total of 348 aircraft movements between 0830 and 1930 that day, and I have to be honest, NOT ONE of the visiting pilots messed up the pattern with a long or poor radio call, our club reckon that this must be some sort of world record.

 

Then we had 15 visitors last Saturday, normal weekend, no events on. . .in fine weather and good viz, and we had three "Near Misses" during overhead joins. . ., plus two blokes who had obviously just bought a radio from a flea market, and one who had a jammed PTT button after his first inbound call, and we had to listen to him for nine Nm, chatting to his passsenger about life, the universe, and everything. . INCLUDING deriding our runways for being "Too Effing Short. . ." until he landed and switched off. . .

 

GEEEEEEZ . . . we don't get paid anything,. . but we DO have a laugh sometimes !

 

Phil

 

 

[metalman]

I was actually taught to do all my run ups and checks at the hold point,,,,,I soon had that behaviour knocked out of me as soon as I went up with another school,,,my first instructor taught me a few dumb ar5e things that have had to be unlearned !

 

 

[boingk]

I got taught to call 'taxi to runup area', straight after which I would roll to the area and... wait for it... do my runup checks!

 

This small call, although I don't think its mandatory, really made a difference to me.

 

- boingk

 

 

[Phil Perry]

I got taught to call 'taxi to runup area', straight after which I would roll to the area and... wait for it... do my runup checks!This small call, although I don't think its mandatory, really made a difference to me.

 

- boingk

I was at a nice local airfield called Halfpenny Green last week, this site has three runways in the old triangular pre- ww2 RAF setup, with a perimeter taxiway all the way around the field.

 

At this place there is PLENTY of hard apron / parking area, where all of the neccessary checks can be safely carried out without risk of blowing someone else's pride and joy away and YET. . . .

 

some pilots leave the entire process until they get to the holding point for whichever active runway, and then go throught the lot, whilst holding up a queue of other aircraft behind them, as the taxiways are not wide enough to safely overtake. I'm a great believer in carrying out a brief radio call to the tower to let them know where I'm parked. . ., then a dead cut mag check on startup, get the tees + pees to an acceptable level, then move somewhere safe on the apron to do the rest, trying not to aim the aeroplane at anything expensive, in case the brakes suddenly go on strike during the runup. Seemples.

 

Then when it's all done, I can join the taxi queue knowing that I'm not going to hold up some guy in a 10 seat twin, and wasting a load of his fuel at the hold. Simple courtesy really. . . ?

 

Phil

 

 

[facthunter]

You shouldn't be doing a runup with a plane close behind you anyway.( Others find a place to blow gravel into hangars.) It's called airmanship ( or perhaps airpersonship) Almost extinct perhaps. Holding into the direction of the circuit at 45 degrees to the runway at the threshold is ideal especially in a highwing plane (or whatever it takes). You MUST not taxi out without the circuit being clear. I once had a Garuda 707 enter the runway when I was at about 150 feet on approach. It was on the captains side so he couldn't blame the F/O

 

 

[Phil Perry]

In my experience Radio work is abbysmal generally. I can't recall anyone responding to a request for details of their present position at small airports. they just clam up.( RAA and GA.) Perhaps the mental effort required is too challenging. You have to actually know where you are in relation to the field Oh AND your height too. Nev

Maybe this is why CBers ( do they still have those in Oz ? ) used to be great when they learned to fly, mainly because they were not afraid of operating a transmitter ? I've been a radio ham since childhood, so have no fear of making a prune of myself on the wireless ! ! ! ( for those younger people who have possibly never heard of Ham Radio,. . . we are geeks who play about with valves and transistors and stuff lije that and some of us get barbecued or fingers burned off whilst messing about with high voltage comms gear. . . nowadays, even your pet hamster wouldn't suffer if he fell into your 12 volt DC radio !

 

Anyway, don't want to drift too far off thread, but I WOULD like to know what mnemonics you Aussiefolk use as an aide memoire for your radio calls, we have a few in the UK, so I'll put them on a new thread and we'll see if we can asuage everyone's ire at bad R/T operating procedures by educating the oiks ? ? ? ? I mean. . . .If we don't tell 'em,. . . how are they going to know how many suave sophisticated man about town aviators like us they are annoying. . . . ??

 

Phil

 

 

[Phil Perry]

I would have to agree, while I know my radio work it not perfect, I try to let others know where I am, even if the field is not a ctaf. I heard one the other day, I was about 10 miles to the north and heard " arrrr, xxxxx field traffic, glider ( no ID), arrrr, about arrrr, 20 k's arrrr west, inbound, should arrive in about 20 minutes". I guess I knew he was somewhere not conflicting with me, but made me feel much better about my radio procedures.I have flown (2 aircraft in loose formation) into their field before, they did make a point of telling us that our radio calls were clear and concise.

As far as knowing where you are, I would hope that if your are flying, you would have a bit of an idea where you are and your altitude.

Geez M61,. . . . . I'll have to have a re-read of some of these codes you're using,. . . I mean, a CTAF is an expression we use when we can see a Welshman in the distance. . . . Back to the Aussie Govt. downloads you guys gave me I think. . . . . . .

 

 

[M61A1]

Geez M61,. . . . . I'll have to have a re-read of some of these codes you're using,. . . I mean, a CTAF is an expression we use when we can see a Welshman in the distance. . . . Back to the Aussie Govt. downloads you guys gave me I think. . . . . . .

Actually I wasn't completely accurate there.....there are CTAF's and CTAF®'s now, unless they've changed it again, it means Common Traffic Advisory Frequency the ® is for Radio, and designates that the area in question mandates the carriage and use of a serviceable airband radio. A CTAF does not require a radio, but it's still a good idea.

 

 

[djpacro]

They have changed it again!

 

 

[frank marriott]

See CAAP 166 -1 (1)

 

CTAF® is history

 

 

[M61A1]

Yep....should've looked before I hit the post button. RAA stuff still refers to CTAF & CTAF®. Just had another look , and some CASA stuff still refers to CTAF and CTAF®, but ERSA refers to Certified or Registered.

 

 

[derekliston]

Thats the way of CASA, keep changing things then wonder why things aren't as safe as they could be, more time required keeping up with changes than flying. Shades of Yes Prime Minister!

 

 

[frank marriott]

Thats the way of CASA, keep changing things then wonder why things aren't as safe as they could be, more time required keeping up with changes than flying. Shades of Yes Prime Minister!

One of the advantages of reading this site, if a change has happened in relation to RAA/GA VFR flying, normally someone here is aware of it.

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

Geez M61,. . . . . I'll have to have a re-read of some of these codes you're using,. . . I mean, a CTAF is an expression we use when we can see a Welshman in the distance. . . . Back to the Aussie Govt. downloads you guys gave me I think. . . . . . .

CASA 203/05

 

CTAF-Common Traffic Advisory Frequency- and Mandatory Broadcast zones MBZ's( Certified/Registered) were used for comms into non CTR aerodromes from 2005 under the revised AMATS system for Australian airspace.

 

This model had a further update in 2010 to replace the growing plethora of acronyms for uncontrolled AD's and removing the outdated GAAP AD's to reflect a simplified operation system for all pilots in non controlled airspace- this became known as "Operations at Non-Towered Aerodromes" ( CAAP 166-1, then 166-2), which in effect did away with GAAP AD's and made every AD outside CTA a CTAF- either with its' own frequency or via MULTICOM (126.700).

 

There's some acronyms to get your head around now Phil!

 

The CAAP clearly outlines the "recommended" standard calls required and does not mandate any specific calls,( other than for immediate collision avoidance) instead focussing on "enhanced see and avoid" as the primary purpose for calls, so if it's not " enhancing" then there is no need to do it. The whole point being to limit the amount of radio traffic and get pilots to back to basics by using a strong effective lookout.

 

Inevitably, like medication, many pilots think if a little bit is good then more has to be better- unfortunately this leads to the situations described above.

 

 

[M61A1]

Thats the way of CASA, keep changing things then wonder why things aren't as safe as they could be, more time required keeping up with changes than flying. Shades of Yes Prime Minister!

Yep....if the people making rules, don't make more or different rules, then they wont have a job.

 

 

[frank marriott]

Re comment by ballpoint:

 

I could not agree more.

 

I still hear pilots (mainly RAA) giving 3 plus calls entering a circuit when there is not another aircraft within 100nm. This was what they were taught but the ops manual and CASA regs have changed.

 

There might be other aircraft in the area/circuit but if they do not have a radio multiple calls will not assist - see and avoid and standard circuit entry procedures apply.

 

The change I agree with as I have no interest in an aircraft doing downwind, base and final calls 50 to 100nm away with no radio aircraft in their area when I might have traffic at my aerodrome who cannot get a word in because of excessive use of the CTAF freq.

 

General CB type traffic on 126.7 is another one of my extreme dislikes.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

So. . . . . . . what you are saying is that, C.A.S.A. makes additional rules, some of which immediatlely outdate previous rules. . . . not for any really sensible puprose, but, to justify their actual existence ?? . . . . . when I flew regularly in OZ, . . . . a survey discovered that there were (NEARLY) ten "Pen Pushers" at D.C.A. [as it was called then. . .] to every aircraft on the register. . . . bear in mind that this was in 1979,. . . . . . I take it that this BIG GOVERNMENT philosophy has not changed much since then . . . .?

 

Phil

 

 

[Phil Perry]

CASA 203/05CTAF-Common Traffic Advisory Frequency- and Mandatory Broadcast zones MBZ's( Certified/Registered) were used for comms into non CTR aerodromes from 2005 under the revised AMATS system for Australian airspace.

 

This model had a further update in 2010 to replace the growing plethora of acronyms for uncontrolled AD's and removing the outdated GAAP AD's to reflect a simplified operation system for all pilots in non controlled airspace- this became known as "Operations at Non-Towered Aerodromes" ( CAAP 166-1, then 166-2), which in effect did away with GAAP AD's and made every AD outside CTA a CTAF- either with its' own frequency or via MULTICOM (126.700).

 

There's some acronyms to get your head around now Phil!

 

The CAAP clearly outlines the "recommended" standard calls required and does not mandate any specific calls,( other than for immediate collision avoidance) instead focussing on "enhanced see and avoid" as the primary purpose for calls, so if it's not " enhancing" then there is no need to do it. The whole point being to limit the amount of radio traffic and get pilots to back to basics by using a strong effective lookout.

 

Inevitably, like medication, many pilots think if a little bit is good then more has to be better- unfortunately this leads to the situations described above.

Thanks for that Ballpoint. . . . .

 

So you are saying that "Multicom" and Unicom" are one and the same thing, . . . .? Well, that clears up that confusion then. . . . .MIND YOU. . . .When I get back to OZ, which might not be that long the way things are going here in Blighty. . . . It will probably have changed again ? ? ? ? Well,. . . . I'lll just have to chirp on the wireless, and if I get the phraseology wrong,. . . then I'm sure some young whippersnapper will say something like . . . ." OI, you Pommie twat. . . . .you have to say it like THIS. . . or they won't answer you . . . you berk. . . "

 

Phil

 

Air / Ground Radio Manager/ Instructor - Otherton Airfield - Staffordshire Aero Club. www.othertonairfield.co.uk

 

***** Edited to add. . . . Someone once told me that the Austrailan Governemnt make the Spanish Government look positively HELPFUL. . . . . . ( ? )* * * * * End of edit

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

One last point UNICOM is a discrete frequency, normally allocated for an event or location with discrete information provided at that airfield. MULTICOM is an assigned CTAF frequency to be used for any CTAF are that doesn't have it's own CTAF allocated by AirServices.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

One last point UNICOM is a discrete frequency, normally allocated for an event or location with discrete information provided at that airfield. MULTICOM is an assigned CTAF frequency to be used for any CTAF are that doesn't have it's own CTAF allocated by AirServices.

Thanks for that illumination Ballpoint. .

 

In Uk we have a "SAFETYCOM" frequency - 135.475, which may be used for Aircraft - to Aircraft ONLY, at sites which have no allocated comms facility at all. . . . . NO fixed ground station is allowed to use this freq. This has been quite useful, as a ground station requires not only an annual license fee, but also reequires a certified Air / Ground radio operator to use it, a cost / personnel burden which many small clubs cannot justify. There is No fee payable for a site to use Safetycom.

 

The simplicity of Safetycom is it's main advantage, a pilot is simply required to prefix the word safetycom with the name of the station / airfield site he is calling, along with his callsign and intentions. Any other aircraft in the same area, or an aircraft which happens to be energised on the ground at the particular site, can respond with any known local traffic info plus surface wind and pressure settings if known.

 

The only other National frequency originally allocated for Microlight / ultralight / sport aviation comms, is 129.825. This is used by larger clubs with a fixed ground station, but Aircraft to Aircraft communication using this channel is discouraged. It has a very low maintenance cost of around £75.00 per annum for a club station, whereas an airfield with Flight Information Service or ATC costs megabucks in licence fees and operator costs since all their comms operatives have to be paid !

 

Phil

 

 

[Phil Perry]

I can appreciate, from several comments on here that, although the thread is pointing now towards LESS communicating, . . or perhaps more concisely ( and briefly) in order to help preclude an aircraft collision, but that some of you don't want to hear a load of chatter on a frequency you are monitoring either,. . . so I guess that there must be a happy comms medium somewhere in the middle to act as an assistant to the Mk. One Eyeball in collision avoidance. . . ? I noted Frank's comment about the 126.7 Unicom being used like CB also. . . . we do get a small amount of that on our Unicom - style 129.825 on nice summer days, but not too much as we live in a very small country ( radio-wise ) so inane chatter is frowned upon since you could easily span the width of the country with a five watt signal from an aicraft at 2,000 feet, this makes any daft chat perpetrator somewhat unpopular over a wide area ! We have a notice in our clubhouse which suggests that visiting pilots use the lowest power setting on their vhf comm, if it is adjustable.

 

"We can easily hear you from 15- 20 Nm away using a Half Watt RF power " !!

 

Phil