Emerald Qld - Virgin does go-around to avoid light plane

[dazza 38]

We don't really know. If the Dash 8 couldn't make radio contact with the plane doing circuits, perhaps he thought the safest course of action was to wait till he landed. I'm not suggesting this is the best thing to do but it is hardly unsafe. If you quote his PA correctly I don't think he was rubbishing U/Ls . By saying someone was doing something that held him up he wasn't stating anything except what happened. " pesky" is the word you added, dazza. We all share the same sky. Nev

True Nev, I added Pesky for drama:doh:

It wasn't what he said, It was more the tone in his voice. He said it in a condscending kind of way. At the end of the day, he made the right choice for him I guess.Playing it safe. But listening to his excuse for his 20 minute jolly was easily accepted by my non pilot work mates as they wouldn't know any better. But to me, it sounded like a weak excuse. The UL was doing circuits onto the main runway into the wind for at least 30 mins before the -8 rocked up. I can't see how this particular Capt couldn't or wouldn't fit in with him. I fly into Roma 24 times a year on a -8, this is the first time I have seen this happen, every other time we have fitted in with the local trafffic no problems.

 

 

[cscotthendry]

I wonder if the RPT folks spend so much of their flight time being told what to do that when they come to a non-towered airfield, they're a bit intimidated liasing with other pilots and having to THINK about the circuit entry/procedure.

 

My only experience with an RPT guy was the prison plane that flies into Maryborough Queensland. I was arriving in my trike as he was on straight in final, I did a three mile call and was intending to land on the grass cross strip. This guy calmly asked me what my intentions were on landing and I told him that I'd wait at the junction for him to land on the bitumen. He thanked me and when he taxied by he said, "that looks like a lot of fun". All very civilised and such.

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Two things that really annoy me and contribute to the problem:

 

IFR Pilot: "Tracking for the RNAV via echo echo" VFR Pilot thinking: "Where's the fox hat?"

 

VFR Pilot: "I'm just over two blow fly creek" IFR Pilot thinking: "Where's the fox hat?"

 

Remember you are not the only ones out there!

 

 

[bilby54]

I was waiting at Roma a few months ago for our ride.QL -8. A LSA was doing circuits when the -8 rocked up. I then watched the -8 fly around and around in the distance for about 20 minutes.I was thinking they were having a problem. Well I was sort of right.They had a problem, they were too scared to land at Roma with the LSA doing circuits.Anyway as I was already pissed off by the delay then Captain old mate comes over the cabin speaker. "Sorry for the delay,we held for 20 minutes north of the field because a ultralight was practicing landings and we thought it was safer if we stayed to the north of the field until the ultralight landed.

Well I was really spitting chips by this stage. Not only were we late because of the crews incompetence to mix it with other aircraft (one other aircraft) at a non towered aerodrome.He bagged the ultralight guys.

Hmmmm, sounds like my school Tecnam which is radio and transponder equipped.

 

We always fit in with the Dash-8 traffic and give them priority but I have to say that some of the Q400 drivers get a bit pushy - bigger plane... bigger head I'm sure. I'll ask around and find out if anyone had any problems with them because for my part, they were telling big porkies to the passengers.

 

 

[turboplanner]

We had a long thread on this, and I did the research then went to CASA and we established that the legal requirement was to land on the into wind or duty runway - for everyone.

 

That was about three years ago, and CASA had already identified the "after you", no "after you", or straight bullying as a safety issue and I think had ordered retraining for at least 1 RPT.

 

The question came up a few months ago and I looked for the CAR and found something different which almost looked as if the airlines had leaned on CASA to get priority.

 

So is this ever blows up, which appears inevitable in the long term, the legal trail could make front page headlines.

 

 

[facthunter]

SH pilots don't get "told" what to do . The ATC people provide separation and flow of traffic under rules they abide by. A pilot plans and at some stage seeks a clearance to go somewhere and gets it or has to get one next best or hold or divert. The pilot will decide which divert aerodrome suits his or his companies requirements.

 

The have been some safety issues with smaller aircraft at some "regional" aerodromes. Heavy aircraft have no right to demand any privileges other than what is available to them under the rules and priorities specified for aircraft generally. One example is that where an aircraft declares an emergency it gets priority over all traffic, and landing aircraft have a priority over those taking off . You can't just abuse this one but it is a principle. Nev

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Not to mention a pilot can deviate from an ATC clearance at any time if the aircraft is in jeopardy!

 

 

[facthunter]

That is certainly correct. Even IF the pilot consider an alternate action provides more safety he should 'request' it, but going further if the instuction is not in accord with the planes SOP's will advise "REQUIRE" whatever procedure he sees as needed. This is important if the runway has too much downwind component for "your" operation. In the ninety's at Avalon about 3 or more jabiru's landed downwind and dislodged the nosewheels. None of them were confident or familiar enough with the rules to challenge the ATC runway nomination.. Nev

 

 

[Neville75]

Two things that really annoy me and contribute to the problem:IFR Pilot: "Tracking for the RNAV via echo echo" VFR Pilot thinking: "Where's the fox hat?"

 

VFR Pilot: "I'm just over two blow fly creek" IFR Pilot thinking: "Where's the fox hat?"

 

Remember you are not the only ones out there!

Listened to a qlink arranging separation with a microlite over the weekend at Hervey Bay. Microlite gave several calls advising he was over River Heads, qlink queried informing him he didn't know where that was. My initial thoughts were "what ... don't you guys carry maps?" It's not like it was an obscure place, it's clearly marked. Anyway they both sorted themselves out and most politely dash 8 joined the circuit for the runway which an RV was already doing circuits on - not opposite as they usually do!

 

Made me wish I was up there mixing it with them

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

We carry maps (WAC's) ! But at 5+ miles a minute, by the time you get them out and find the place, you may very well be past it!

 

Much easier to ask!

 

As an example I have 114 possible destinations. It is very difficult to be aware of all the local landmarks and/or training areas, so a bearing and distance is a lot more useful to me. When I'm announcing my intentions, rather than say "conducting the RNAV via echo echo", I will use terminology like "tracking via a 15 mile final straight in runway 2-9", that way non IFR aircraft are aware of exactly what I am doing and don't have to guess where 'echo echo' might be.

 

 

[turboplanner]

It's the 5+ miles a minute that's the hard part. If you are in the slow aircraft, unless you know exactly where you are spatially, and youi know exactly where to look for the incoming 5 miles per minute missile, it's Mayor of Hiroshima territory for a while.

 

 

[Mr Mal]

I have had the RPT boys take off and land around me when the MKY tower is closed. Found them to be gracious and accepting, some till you not to extend down wind so they can see what flying for fun looks like and others thankyou for extending down wind to help keep them on time............ extending down wind is fine by me as it means more flying time............... now if an RPT dropped in on me whilst I had my eyes closed trying to land - that would be a different matter! Safe flying and more importantly have fun.......

 

 

[frank marriott]

Short, precise and professional radio calls help

 

One gains an impression from the way a radio is used as to the likely behaviour of another aircraft.

 

Too much unnecessary chatter not only clogs airspace but gives negative impressions of that pilot - remember it is not a CB radio or a party line phone call.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

In emerald?

 

 

[Hongie]

Ive heard some shockers of radio calls. One particular one @ bowen one day the guy said three different rego numbers (not one of them was correct btw), and his joining call was, and i quote "Gunna fly overhead, and have a look at the god-damn wind!" and then seeing another savannah taxiing (me) transmitted again and said "hey, an S model sav is it? hows it go mate?" I didnt reply, even after he repeated the question. I think he got the idea then.

 

 

[facthunter]

His radio procedures need work for sure. As we mix it more and more these aspects of our performance will have to be improved. The radio is a very usefull aid. Used badly it can be a negative. I've noticed even RPT procedures have dropped off too. Is it a generational thing? Nev

 

 

[Admin]

Is it a generational thing? Nev

I think you may have hit the nail on the head there Nev

 

 

[Patrick Normoyle]

Nev, IFR RPT aircraft don't need too and almost never carry VFR type maps, they will have ERC's but no visual type maps, use a bearing and a distance from the common fix ( airport or MAJOR town ) airport is best or if you see them, use a clock reference, "I'm you 2 o'clock low at 2nm, purple and yellow high wing ultralight ", who gives a rats rear end who is in he right or wrong here folks, the wake turbulance alone from a Q400 will flip you, separate your tail from the rest of the aircraft. So see and avoid your aircraft to safety, they are flying a bus load of passengers you are out having fun, unless you need the priority and have declared so, why not give them a bit of space, we are at max just two people per aircraft.

 

There is a training benefit here too, take out the fear and surprise a student might get in the circuit with a B737 or DH8D and brief them on holding, orbiting on downwind or any other safe manoeuvre available to them.

 

The worst case scenario here after being killed in a mid air or getting turned inside out from wake turbulance will be when places like Port Mcquarie and Harvey Bay get a control tower and class D airspace all because some of US out there can't realise we are not the centre of the universe. What does another 4 minutes to you matter, a student can learn some more, a joy flight just goes a bit longer and the passenger gets a real cool experience seeing the other traffic, you help to bolster our image a professional pilots and if your on your own, just enjoy your passion a wee bit longer.

 

I even give priority to the fly school aircraft here at Aldinga, I'm out there having fun and they are tring to teach and keep their business going.

 

As far as the go around, AIP states arriving aircraft have priority for use of the runway over departing aircraft, it also states operations to and from the duty or into wind runway have priority over non-duty or x/wind downwind operations.

 

If we can, we should try and give the RPT types a measure of respect and do OUR best to minimise their delays due to our operations where safe to do so.

 

All the opinions expressed above are those solely my own.

 

 

[Patrick Normoyle]

Very well said and sounds like great AIRMANSHIP, well done to you all, it goes both ways. Where do you fly from ? I was there 2.5 years ago as an ATC and had my Drifter up in Lakeside. I really miss that place and the people there.

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

I've noticed even RPT procedures have dropped off too. Is it a generational thing? Nev

Possibly, but I don't necessarily think so as it is across all generations.More likely I think the problem stems from the 'must have it now' society that we live in today. People don't, or (won't) get the book out (or ipad), and check what is actually correct. They'd rather take someone elses word for it, which invariably turns out to be wrong!

 

The younger guys tend to repeat what they hear on the radio which 'sounds cool', conversely the older guys tend to be using radio procedures that are outdated. But basically it all stems back to an unwillingness to find out what is correct.

 

I have been in this industry for almost 30 years and not a day goes by where I don't get out the pilot operating handbook, operations manual, AIP, QRH, ERSA or various pilot guides and learn something that I... a) Didn't know before, or, b) Had forgotten.

 

Having said that my radio procedures could always use work!

 

 

[Hongie]

His radio procedures need work for sure. As we mix it more and more these aspects of our performance will have to be improved. The radio is a very usefull aid. Used badly it can be a negative. I've noticed even RPT procedures have dropped off too. Is it a generational thing? Nev

I'm unsure which generation this is referring to, but for the record the gentleman in question was pushing 60 by my estimate.

 

 

[facthunter]

I'm not sure he was imitating anybody either. Anything's better than someone who doesn't ponder what he is going to say and just goes on forever taking up the airwaves with waffle. My point was non standard phraseology, some of which changes from time to time. I still think the strict adherence to procedures, might be a bit uncool (perceived) It shouldn't be. If this guy is only sixty we can give him a bit of time to catch on? Nev

 

 

[Hongie]

I agree whole heartedly mate, and I always try to maintain standard nomenclature, although you always come up against situations where you are not quite sure how to say what needs saying. Well, I do anyways.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I think your "generational" comment is the foundation FH.

 

By the end of WW2 a huge number of pilots had been produced who knew the lifesaving benefit of keeping radio traffic free for that quick "Bandit at 12" which could save their lives, and as they drifted into post war aviation they created a formal and very safe culture, with the new phonetic codes we used today, containing consonants which came though, even with marginal radios.

 

Radio procedures were strict too with the two key circuit calls "ABC Base for full stop" and "ABC" final on a poor quality radio still coming across as *** * ** vs *** **

 

There seems to be an assumption (incorrect) these days that radios never fail and transmissions are always clear, and the couldn't care less procedures add considerably to work load and risk.

 

This is an area overdue for a clean up by CASA, which would be cost neutral and painless to pilots

 

For the RPT guys - to a private pilot transmitting that you are at 2000 12 miles dme on the 123 radial is not safe because the poor guy doesn't have radials embedded in his subconscious yet and it's more likely to panic him and have him in your lap.

 

 

[turboplanner]

And the part I forgot which confirms Facthunter's generational comment, was that not only were these pilots mostly ex RAAF, and knew the reasons behind precise and consistent calls, but so were the ATC staff, and while they lasted up until the seventies, and their students knew the reasons having been forcefully trained, that era has died out now, and that knowledge is lost.

 

It only took a hundred years for the Egyptians to lose the skill of building pyramids which lasted thousands of years, and start building structures which collapsed into heaps of rubble, and this is a little bit the same. We don't know we don't know why.