OzRunways now CASA approved!

[Jabiru Phil]

Thanks

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Nowhere in the CAAP does it say it must be a minimum of an A5, it may say so somewhere else but this is some persons interpretation, the CAAP is after all the legal document.

Thats because the CAAP is an Advisory publication not a regulatory one. To quote from the document header -

 

"..... nor may the CAAP contain mandatory requirements not contained in legislation."

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

You mean CAR 233 is not really aimed at RAA pilots and/or their aircraft?

I basically said if casa did a ramp check and you had a iPad mini and a iphone I think they would let you pass...especially if you carried a couple of maps thats all

 

 

[dutchroll]

Yes I would agree with your original first sentence. I was just confused by the second.

 

 

[REastwood]

Be careful, as some people in the regulatory system (CASA and RA-Aus) believe their interpretation IS the law. Despite what the regulations logically state, they may think that it doesn't apply to a certain group or their policy is safer/better.

 

So, until a few people have been ramp checked and the "current policy" is determined, I shall be a bit wary of buying an iPad mini or using a second iPad as the backup.

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

I can't for the livfe of me see what the anti comments are all about

 

If CASA has ok'd the software for use and the size of the tablet is for an iPad size and a back up is required,what's the problem?

 

I for one would not venture into unfamiliar territory without maps for the area.

 

IPhone as a secondary backup would be my third choice after the wacs charts

 

Ever tried to read an iPhone app when enroute? it's not flying the plane.

 

Plenty comments, so please keep them comming

 

Phil

 

 

[damkia]

In legal jargon "shall" or past tense "should" is a legal imperative. It is equal to common usage of "must".

 

I can't get over the possibility that CASA were not interested in some propriety manufacturers screen sizes, more an equivalent size to the current format (A5). If you're in the minimum screen size, your in, if not, you're out.

 

 

[TK58]

In legal jargon "shall" or past tense "should" is a legal imperative. It is equal to common usage of "must".

I disagree. In my understanding 'shall' means mandatory and 'should' is advisory. REastwood makes a very valid point though. If you're getting ramp checked the interpretation of the bureaucrat in front of you is what's going to matter.

 

In preparation for my trip to Natfly I emailed RAAus Ops Manager and explicitly asked about the use of Oz Runways. The response (about a week before this announcement) was that paper charts were required as the primary source of navigation information but that the iPad was a permitted alternative for ERSA, etc. and as a secondary. They went on to add that iPhones are not acceptable at all.

 

I ran into both Jill (RAAus Assistant Ops Manager) and Zane (RAAus Ops Manager) at Natfly and asked if the CASA approval had changed that advice. Jill said no, the approval is for OzRunways as a data source, not a navigation tool. Zane said you can now use an iPad as primary and a second iPad as secondary if you wish. A short discussion ensued with the conclusion that clarification will need to be sought from Kevin Scrimshaw (CASA).

 

If the people whose job it is to understand the rules and ensure we comply are confused (which appears to be the case) what hope for the rest of us?

 

 

[TK58]

Incidentally, a friend got ramp checked at Natfly (advisory only) and one of the issues they raised was although he had the right charts, they weren't marked up with his flight plan.

 

 

[Spriteah]

I am aware of a ramp check where the Ipad was used to plan and fly the trip. At the time of planning take screen shots (new to me, you hit the power button and the apps button at the same time and it takes screen capture). Then when finished send all the photos to your home PC and print. Done, you now have maps with plan drawn on same, log, fuel and weather. CASA were happy with this on this occasion.

 

They should be happier next time as Ozrun is now approved.

 

Jim

 

 

[metalman]

All the legal stuff aside , I've had my iPad freeze on me inflight three times now, be very careful trusting the things it's a toy, a pretty cool one , but a toy all the same. I wonder if allowing them as primary nav tools we'll see an increase in pilots getting lost or even VCA's increasing as people skirt the edges closer " because the little screen plane says I'm good " , I'll use mine inflight but I'll be using paper maps as primary,and the garmin in the panel and the iPad on the knee as secondary

 

 

[davebutler]

Just read elsewhere that CASA has had a rethink and given the iPad mini the green light or rather the green tick!

 

I await with baited breath!

 

 

[Guernsey]

Qantas is now using the iPad as the primary-means instrument approach chart, enroute chart, airfield diagram,The iPad is fine!

 

....oh, sorry, and the only other bit of paper will be the empty peanut packets behind the seats.

Hope they are A5 sized packets.

 

Alan.

 

 

[kaz3g]

The man from CASA spelled it out pretty clearly at Temora yesterday.

 

If you want to go all electronic, an iPad is accepted as a primary source EFB and an iPad mini is fine as a back-up (but not an iPhone). At this stage, that means you need two subscriptions to OzRunways because you can't use you current subscription on the mini.

 

Alternatively, you use paper.

 

BUT, this does not mean you can use the GPS and moving map from OzRunways as a primary navigation aid. It is not TSO'd and so you still need to do clock and compass.

 

Kaz

 

 

[sfGnome]

All the legal stuff aside , I've had my iPad freeze on me inflight three times now, be very careful trusting the things it's a toy, a pretty cool one , but a toy all the same. I wonder if allowing them as primary nav tools we'll see an increase in pilots getting lost or even VCA's increasing as people skirt the edges closer " because the little screen plane says I'm good " , I'll use mine inflight but I'll be using paper maps as primary,and the garmin in the panel and the iPad on the knee as secondary

MM, this might be telling you something you already know, so apologies ahead of time if I am (however, I know of people who did get stuck on this). Make sure that the lock symbol in the top corner isn't locked. It protects the display from accidental swipes, but it also gives the impression that the iPad has locked up. Depending on how you have ozrunways set up, it takes either one or two touches on the lock symbol to unlock the screen. Personally, I keep it locked most of the time, only unlocking it when I need to zoom in on something. I think from memory that it only locks when you go into flight mode, so you never see it when you're planning or learning the system.

 

 

[Mark11]

So no need to buy a GPS then.... Just get two iPad minis... One on each leg

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

I am aware of a ramp check where the Ipad was used to plan and fly the trip. At the time of planning take screen shots (new to me, you hit the power button and the apps button at the same time and it takes screen capture). Then when finished send all the photos to your home PC and print. Done, you now have maps with plan drawn on same, log, fuel and weather. CASA were happy with this on this occasion.They should be happier next time as Ozrun is now approved.

 

Jim

Jim

 

Stupid me. Where is the apps button found when on the maps page?

 

I accidentally did a while ago. I heard the camera click and found a copy of the screen shot (email) in my pictures

 

This would be great if I could do it again

 

Cheers

 

Phil.

 

 

[rhysmcc]

JimStupid me. Where is the apps button found when on the maps page?

I accidentally did a while ago. I heard the camera click and found a copy of the screen shot (email) in my pictures

 

This would be great if I could do it again

 

Cheers

 

Phil.

I'm not sure of what this "Apps" button is, but to take a screen shot from your iPhone, iPad or iPad mini simply press the Home Button and the Power Button together at the same time. The screen will flash and you'll hear the camera sound (if sound is on).

 

 

[Spriteah]

My Apps button = Home Button...

 

 

 

[JUSTNUZZA]

The bi

 

JimStupid me. Where is the apps button found when on the maps page?

I accidentally did a while ago. I heard the camera click and found a copy of the screen shot (email) in my pictures

 

This would be great if I could do it again

 

Cheers

 

The big round one at the lower front surface of the ipad.

[djpacro]

The man from CASA spelled it out pretty clearly at Temora yesterday.

Could you expand on that as from your post I can't see that it was spelled out clearly at all.

If you want to go all electronic, an iPad is accepted as a primary source EFB and an iPad mini is fine as a back-up (but not an iPhone).

Depends. If operating under an AOC then YES (although point to the rule where something is fine as back-up but not a primary - I bet that word is not even used in the rules). If a private pilot on a private operation then NO.As some-one pointed out, if one is ramp checked it can be difficult to deal with a bullying CASA officer but an open forum is the time to tackle their statements and get them to clarify - if not in the regs or orders then it is only guidance - it may very well be good guidance but it is really up to the pilot in command and the situation at the time.

If I am on a familiar, short trip in good weather there is no reason why an iPhone is not OK for me in the Pitts.

 

If unfamiliar territory in complex airspace and weather not the best, for example, then I want everything going for me.

 

A long trip then even more consideration to the risk of losing power to the device.

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

I'm not sure of what this "Apps" button is, but to take a screen shot from your iPhone, iPad or iPad mini simply press the Home Button and the Power Button together at the same time. The screen will flash and you'll hear the camera sound (if sound is on).

Many thanks, found it ok

 

Brilliant!

 

 

[jetjr]

Agree with djparco, ipad mini is OK or its not, cant be ok as backup only

 

 

[rankamateur]

Just read elsewhere that CASA has had a rethink and given the iPad mini the green light or rather the green tick!I await with baited breath!

Was elsewhere somewhere we aren't allowed to mention on this forum or would you be able to elaborate?

 

 

[davebutler]

No secret rankamatuer, "elsewhere" is pprune where a member there mentioned that a CASA rep at Temora had mentioned that it would be changed.

 

Since then it has been mentioned on this site that this is not entirely true, it can be used only as back up, another joke!!! How is it suddenly big enough to read as a back up and not as a primary doc reader????

 

Personally if cannot read a mini iPad it is not a bigger iPad you need but new specs:oh yeah:

 

On a more serious note has anybody actually read an official doc where size is actually mention? I am not talking about FAQ pages etc where opinions and perceptions are voiced.

 

All I can find is in CAAP 233-1, Electronic Flight Bags where it is only a recommendation. I have even read ICAO annex 4 as mentioned in CAAP233-1 and can't find anything about size.

 

Also the other docs,CAR's & CAO's refer to those operating under an AOC, does this apply to private/RA ops?

 

It just seems strange that we need an approved document reader in RA A/C but just about every other instrument & radio does not have to be approved. By this I mean they are not required to be TSO'd.

 

Are we as private & RA pilots not heading off at a tangent here with this one??

 

If I am missing something please point me in the right direction.