OzRunways now CASA approved!

[CrayonBox]

It's after Easter :-)

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Yes I thought we would see V3 come up on the app store for a update over easter...nothing yet

 

 

[davebutler]

V3 is there:smile::wave:Just go to app store & updates

 

 

[dutchroll]

I'm befuddled by the CASA attitude (there is nothing new in that statement).

 

If the screen size is a "recommendation", and the over-riding factor is that the charts have to be viewable on a "similar" scale to the paper originals without "excessive" (an entirely subjective term) scrolling, then how on earth can a CASA rep arbitrarily decide that any particular given tablet is OK or not?

 

An iPad clearly would be. An iPad mini - perhaps OK too. An iPhone - well I guess that would obviously be too small (but remember we're talking about the law as it applies to AOC holders here, not private pilots).

 

If CASA want to decide what is actually OK and what isn't with a view to nailing people on a cross for violations, then they are going to have to specify more than "recommendations".

 

 

[kaz3g]

Could you expand on that as from your post I can't see that it was spelled out clearly at all.Depends. If operating under an AOC then YES (although point to the rule where something is fine as back-up but not a primary - I bet that word is not even used in the rules). If a private pilot on a private operation then NO.

As some-one pointed out, if one is ramp checked it can be difficult to deal with a bullying CASA officer but an open forum is the time to tackle their statements and get them to clarify - if not in the regs or orders then it is only guidance - it may very well be good guidance but it is really up to the pilot in command and the situation at the time.

 

If I am on a familiar, short trip in good weather there is no reason why an iPhone is not OK for me in the Pitts.

 

If unfamiliar territory in complex airspace and weather not the best, for example, then I want everything going for me.

 

A long trip then even more consideration to the risk of losing power to the device.

Hi DJP

 

I guess I should have said they spelled out their view very clearly.

 

The iPhone was discounted on the basis it doesn't present the data in approximate A5 size and there fore doesn't comply with the requirement that it replicate the paper. The need for a backup was to avoid the potential for a breach of the regs if the EFB fails enroute... I guess you would have to be pretty stiff to have two of them go down on the one stage.

 

But yes, they appear to be applying the AOC requirements to all.

 

Kaz

 

 

[kaz3g]

http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_101203

 

What is the legal requirement for a backup to my EFB?

 

For AOC holders, a backup is mandatory. It is at the operator’s discretion whether the backup is another EFB, or hardcopy charts, maps and documents. The requirements of CAR 233(1)(h) are clear in that the pilot must have the latest documents from an approved vendor readily accessible. It is the readily accessible requirement that prompts the need for backup and all pilots need to ensure how they meet that requirement in the event of a tablet malfunction.

 

An electronic device such as another tablet is an acceptable backup. Private pilots can use tablet devices as a primary means of in-flight documentation, as long as the documentation is from an authorised source (such as Airservices, OzRunways, Jeppesen or Lido).

 

Which applications for EFBs are approved by CASA?

 

Currently only those sourced from the Airservices Aeronautical Information Package (AIP), OzRunways, Jeppesen or Lido.

 

What is the minimum size for an EFB?

 

EFBs need to be able to display information in a manner comparable to the paper aeronautical charts and data they replace. They should have a screen approximately A5 therefore, have a screen size of at least A5 i.e. 210 x 148 mm; 8.3 x 5.8 in. A PDA can only be used for calculations.

 

A smartphone is not appropriate or acceptable as either a primary or backup device.

 

 

[BruceScott]

Hi All

 

Just a note on this, two of us flew into Temora on Saturday and we got ramp checked by CASA. We were able to supply all that they wanted as we had the current maps with the track marked on it.

 

Flight plan with departure and arrival times that were up to date before we got checked.

 

Our maps were up to date, they asked for the current WAC as well as the ERC Low and also our printed weather.

 

If we had have had an Ipad with Oz Runways then this would have been acceptable as we had the maps and ERSA as a backup.

 

We could have had no maps or ERSA and could have had a 2nd Ipad or Ipad mini as the backup. (Yes an ipad mini is acceptable as a backup device or primary device).

 

I asked and they said that Ipad mini and maps/ersa/printed weather was acceptable. But no iPhones as too much scrolling is required.

 

As long as they could see that we had the current weather as a printed copy or saved pdf on the ipad CASA were happy.

 

They told us also that they are happy to accept a photocopy of the ERSA pages for the route, but it would be better to have the ERSA in case of a big deviation of course.

 

BUT one question they asked did we use a GPS and we said YES we used the Avmap installed in the panel as well as the track on the WAC.

 

If we said that used the Ipad (if we had one) then we would have failed as CASA do not consider the ipad to be a GPS only an EFB if you have Oz Runways.

 

Hope that our experience helps others but at no time in the ramp check did we feel threatened or intimidated by the CASA reps, they could not be more helpful, in fact I felt sorry for them with some of the comments made to them on Saturday afternoon when they were hosting a ramp check seminar in front of a jab 230.

 

Some of the comments that were made from some of our members towards the 3 guys were way out of line, these guys are just trying to help us.

 

Do not know who the members were who said these comments but they should be ashamed of themselves.

 

Cheers

 

Bruce

 

 

[Mark11]

IPhones and iPads can zoom in to bigger and better detail than the printed maps.

 

iPhone is certainly more limited

 

Has anyone tested the GPS capability of iPad versus Garmin etc?

 

It sure beats my car GPS (3 years old) finding location super fast (seconds) - car GPS can take a few minutes !

 

 

[kaz3g]

Hi All.

Big snip....

 

BUT one question they asked did we use a GPS and we said YES we used the Avmap installed in the panel as well as the track on the WAC.

 

If we said that used the Ipad (if we had one) then we would have failed as CASA do not consider the ipad to be a GPS only an EFB if you have Oz Runways.

 

Bruce

So I use the Garmin Glonass with the iPad. I wonder how they view that because it reads more satellites than my older Garmin 295? It is also extremely accurate comparing actual position to moving map.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Admin]

Several people said to me at NatFly that they believed AvPlan was far superior than OzRunways, especially the about to be released new version...Just saying what was said to me as I haven't used either so I don't know...AvPlan does support this site though. AvPlan doesn't seem to have the marketing hype that OzRunways does so just thought I would mention that if anyone was considering to get something like this that it may definitely be worth a look at both before anyone decides...one person said that he has both and prefers AvPlan because it has greater functionality...click their image in the right column of the main forums page and see for yourself

 

 

[Guest airsick]

I looked at both products and OzRunways in my view is far better. Cheaper too. To get the same functionality using AvPlan you'd have to buy the base version - $75 - and add on the GEO upgrade - $60 - for a total of $135 compared to $75 for OzRunways. For just $110 you'd get the IFR pack as well for OzRunways (another $60 add on for AvPlan).

 

I am yet to find a feature in AvPlan that is not in OzRunways. Add to that the fact that OzRunways is an authorised provider of charts, AIP's, etc. and it's a no brainer in my opinion.

 

 

[Admin]

I looked at both products and OzRunways in my view is far better. Cheaper too. To get the same functionality using AvPlan you'd have to buy the base version - $75 - and add on the GEO upgrade - $60 - for a total of $135 compared to $75 for OzRunways. For just $110 you'd get the IFR pack as well for OzRunways (another $60 add on for AvPlan).I am yet to find a feature in AvPlan that is not in OzRunways. Add to that the fact that OzRunways is an authorised provider of charts, AIP's, etc. and it's a no brainer in my opinion.

Have you seen and played with the new version of AvPlan then?...I haven't, only going by what several people said...I think one of them was robinsm here on the forums who is out your way...but as I said, I don't know either of them but you should do your own comparison to what suits your needs better

 

 

[slartibartfast]

And they're both free to try.

 

I was talking to the AvPlan lady on the weekend. They are in friendly competition and that means we all benefit.

 

I still prefer OzR though - but I really like the way the rain radar overlays on the map in AvPlan.

 

 

[Guest airsick]

I have to agree with Slarti on the radar - good inclusion - and competition - good outcome for us - comments.

 

I have used both and found OzRunways a bit more user friendly. I'm not sure exactly what makes it that way but maybe that's part of the 'art' of writing this type of package. That aside, I haven't used the upcoming version of AvPlan just the current one. Maybe it's a little different now?

 

That said, in terms of price, functionality and approvals from CASA I think OzR still wins.

 

 

[rankamateur]

Avplan might be friendlier when it comes to printing sections of your flight plan for hard copy.

 

 

[djpacro]

A smartphone is not appropriate or acceptable as either a primary or backup device.

For a private pilot not operating under an AOC then the the only information from CASA is general guidance per the CAAP so therefore no such statement can be made about its acceptability. I wish one of the alphabet organisations would publish appropriate guidance for their members as the CAAP is difficult to interpret for this situation.

So I use the Garmin Glonass with the iPad. I wonder how they view that ..

CASA has no interest in it, not being TSO approved.

Several people said to me at NatFly that they believed AvPlan was far superior than OzRunways,

When my OzRunways subscription expires later in the year I will try Avplan - good chatting to them at Avalon.

[ossie]

a big up for Avplan

 

 

[jakej]

"CASA has no interest in it, not being TSO approved."

 

David,

 

Are you sure ?? There are some there talking about TSO 199 http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/draft_docs/tso/

 

Jake J

 

 

[djpacro]

Sorry Jake, I don't understand your comment (late evening after a long day of stalling and circuits). Will kaz's Garmin Glonass and iPad be approved per that TSO??

 

 

[jakej]

Sorry Jake, I don't understand your comment (late evening after a long day of stalling and circuits). Will kaz's Garmin Glonass and iPad be approved per that TSO??

I believe it's being considered like the FAA is doing, we can only hope. Reminds me of the ADSB discussions years ago when it was mooted that handheld units would/could be approved but then it became political I think. Now with the Ipad & Ozrunways situation & FAA's draft TSO 199 document, there could be a much better chance of other units (handheld/portable etc) being approved too hopefully.

 

 

[shu77]

So I asked my local CASA Rep and just received this reply

 

A private VFR pilot is not required to carry a backup if they are carrying correct documents in an electronic format on the approved size of tablet. If the tablet fails, with no backup, they would then be in breach of the regulations. Therefore the recommendation would be that if they were wanting to carry a backup it would be best to carry the size tablet that complies with the regulations. IPhone and Ipad mini do not comply.

Please contact me should you require further information.

[djpacro]

private VFR pilot ... IPhone and Ipad mini do not comply

and, if that pilot is not operating under an AOC, what regulation or CAO do they not comply with?I have found that CASA officers in Canberra respond iaw with the law unlike some locals.

 

 

[BruceScott]

The CASA rep that did a ramp check on us at Temora said that an Ipad Mini does comply even though it is not A5 size.

 

He said that an iPhone did not comply

 

 

[Guest airsick]

Until someone from CASA shows me the regulation that says I cannot use my iPad mini I'll keep using it. I'll go as far as to test it in court. The only things I have seen are references to ICAO material which only makes recommendations with respect to size. There is no mandatory requirement that I am aware of. Furthermore, the recommendations say approximately. Define approximately! As far as I am concerned my mini is approximately A5. Prove otherwise...

 

 

[BruceScott]

Hi Airsick as I said in the above post CASA told us that an ipad mini is OK but an iphone is not.

 

Bruce