Liquid cooled heads

[gandalph]

True Geoff, But if (when?) the first one fails, their failure rate per number in service, or hours flown will fall through the floor. But even then, the stats won't give a true (or useful) picture of the engines service reliability. Still waiting to hear from FT though.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Answer my question gandy, It seems Jabirus are great engines for pilots but not for engineers.

 

 

[Geoff13]

True Geoff, But if (when?) the first one fails, their failure rate per number in service, or hours flown will fall through the floor. But even then, the stats won't give a true (or useful) picture of the engines service reliability. Still waiting to hear from FT though.

Well that will really depend on if (when?) the first one fails wont it. If they get 10,000 hours which in fact they are well over, or 100,00 hours or 200,000 or a 1,000,000. I guess the further they go before that first one the better they will look. In fact I may email the factory again and ask what their current recorded flight hours are. My figures do date back to January.

 

As with anything new, time will tell. And time does appear to have told on Jabiru.

 

 

[gandalph]

Answer my question gandy, It seems Jabirus are great engines for pilots but not for engineers.

OK I will. You asked how many OEM's use Jabiru? My answer: I don't know and I don't really care.

 

There I've answered you, how about you do that same by offering something to back up your assertion that D's are "vastly superior" to Jabs, instead of trying your old and tired diversionary tactics?

 

Edit: I misquoted FT. He rightly pointed out that he didn't say Jabs were vastly superior to Jabs. He said they were: : "Vastly more successful than Jabiru by any measure." A nice pedantic point there FT , but I'm still interested to see how you back that up. Gunna give it a try?

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I never said that

 

 

[gandalph]

Well that will really depend on if (when?) the first one fails wont it. If they get 10,000 hours which in fact they are well over, or 100,00 hours or 200,000 or a 1,000,000. I guess the further they go before that first one the better they will look. In fact I may email the factory again and ask what their current recorded flight hours are. My figures do date back to January.As with anything new, time will tell. And time does appear to have told on Jabiru.

I agree with everything you've said Geoff bar your last sentence. but we probably have differing opinions on that.

 

 

[Geoff13]

In the last sentence I said time has told on Jabiru.

 

How can you disagree.

 

I did not imply good or bad, just that time has made it mark.

 

If 25 years is not long enough to decide then no amount of time will be.

 

And as with everything in life if you ask 100 people of their own interpretation you will likely get 100 differing answers.

 

 

[facthunter]

Collective time in service gives an opportunity for assessment of the product, allowing modification of weak or poor performing parts. This assumes you collect the data and asses it in an orderly way, rather than go on rumour guesswork, or statistics that aren't specific to the engine's design or condition

 

I agree the time has been considerable but the engine(s) have changed. in some aspects and now allow mogas and the servicing is not tightly specified or practiced. There are a large number of variables, hence a variation in reliability achieved. An engine that has been overheated is damaged. It's not fixed by being allowed to cool down, (as an example). .Nev

 

 

[gandalph]

Geoff, I obviously read into the last sentence more negative sentiment than you say you intended. For that I apologise. Plus I wouldn't want to rile more than one Queenslander at a time.

 

You asked how I could disagree. That's easy, I'm old and curmudgeonly.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Gandy I said the BS where vastly more successful than Jabiru. They've sold tens of millions of engines. Dmotor is looking like it will fill that void in the market that Jabiru doesn't want to fill.

 

 

[biggles]

A little off thread I know , but the latest from Jabiru ......

 

" As we keep saying the Research and Development never stops here at Jabiru. For the last 4 years the Jabiru engineers have been working on the development of the “2210” engine. It’s exciting news!!! There is still work to be done but we are edging closer to the possible launch of this new engine. We are planning to initially release it as an experimental engine. Eventually there will also be a six cylinder released as well.

 

We have now accumulated just over 800 hours in test time and it is performing well. The engine has non corrosive aluminium cylinders with nickel and silicon carbide bores. These cylinders have three times the thermal conductivity of steel and the bores have very low friction and high wear resistance. The cast cylinders are more robust than the steel cylinders we currently use. We will keep you updated on the progress......... in the meantime we have attached some pictures for you of the “2210”

 

 

[gandalph]

Gandy I said the BS where vastly more successful than Jabiru. They've sold tens of millions of engines. Dmotor is looking like it will fill that void in the market that Jabiru doesn't want to fill.

ROFLMAO!

 

 

[aj_richo]

I used to think B&S engines were bullet proof... until the big-end of the alloy conrod broke in half on my ride-on mower.

 

Regular oil changes, air filter changes.. mechanic could not give a reason for failure.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

 

A little off thread I know , but the latest from Jabiru ......" As we keep saying the Research and Development never stops here at Jabiru. For the last 4 years the Jabiru engineers have been working on the development of the “2210” engine. It’s exciting news!!! There is still work to be done but we are edging closer to the possible launch of this new engine. We are planning to initially release it as an experimental engine. Eventually there will also be a six cylinder released as well.

 

We have now accumulated just over 800 hours in test time and it is performing well. The engine has non corrosive aluminium cylinders with nickel and silicon carbide bores. These cylinders have three times the thermal conductivity of steel and the bores have very low friction and high wear resistance. The cast cylinders are more robust than the steel cylinders we currently use. We will keep you updated on the progress......... in the meantime we have attached some pictures for you of the “2210”

Interesting news, Biggles. Maybe a step forward. Very different appearance; seems to lack the extra finning around the exhaust port. Looks like all the pots are the same for economy of manufacture. Also a very different method of attaching the head and barrels.

I presume they get the new bits made in China. I wish them well, but hope this isn't bad news for CAMit.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I used to think B&S engines were bullet proof... until the big-end of the alloy conrod broke in half on my ride-on mower.Regular oil changes, air filter changes.. mechanic could not give a reason for failure.

Here's a stunning stat; At their peak B&S were turning out 24,000 engines per 24 hour shift from their 3 main USA factories, they are down to about 10,000 now. There's a machine near the end of the line that test spins them up and plenty of them break and merely get thrown into the scrap bin, no time to muck around with them.

 

The new Jab engine looks to me to be more bandaids, also doesn't look anywhere near as pretty as the current series engine.

 

Ok, I posted picture but OK beat me to it.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

this kind of quality has to be coming out of china, no way that bundy could do this

 

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

A little off thread I know , but the latest from Jabiru ......" As we keep saying the Research and Development never stops here at Jabiru. For the last 4 years the Jabiru engineers have been working on the development of the “2210” engine. It’s exciting news!!! There is still work to be done but we are edging closer to the possible launch of this new engine. We are planning to initially release it as an experimental engine. Eventually there will also be a six cylinder released as well.

 

We have now accumulated just over 800 hours in test time and it is performing well. The engine has non corrosive aluminium cylinders with nickel and silicon carbide bores. These cylinders have three times the thermal conductivity of steel and the bores have very low friction and high wear resistance. The cast cylinders are more robust than the steel cylinders we currently use. We will keep you updated on the progress......... in the meantime we have attached some pictures for you of the “2210”

A little birdie told me this engine was being developed in a CNC shop on the southside of Brisbane...he had actually seen it

 

 

[bexrbetter]

this kind of quality has to be coming out of china, no way that bundy could do this

That's as fine an aircooled cylinder casting as you could get - from any country. No casting can match the look of a CNC machined item without further process, your expectations are misplaced.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

bex i read that yamaha invented a new way to vacuum cast aluminium a few years back to produce their frames.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

bex i read that yamaha invented a new way to vacuum cast aluminium a few years back to produce their frames.

Yeah, ok, and ....??

 

Your comments on the cylinder, which I would be proud of and no surprise Jab showed it (if you know what you are looking at), brings up the issue of "bling".

 

Jabiru's are (were?) gorgeous engines with all their CNC'ing finish and no doubt part of their success. Now the new one above looks no better than a number of others, I wonder how that will affect sales. They should at least paint the rocker covers red.

 

The UL's stunning good looks aren't hurting it's sales for example and Rotax paint their rocker covers to take your eyes off the otherise dog's breakfast.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

With yamaha's vacuum moulding technique you should be able to design some complex parts

 

Those Rotax rocker covers are the bomb.

 

these are my favourite engine castings atm

 

 

 

 

[AVOCET]

M

 

Google "D motor engine failure" and check results, thenGoogle "Jabiru engine failure" and check results

Now before anyone says but there are buggar all flying, that may be correct but to date the are "0" reported failures.

 

Ps. I can't believe that I just made a post in defence of one of the trolls outrageous statements.

OK I'll bite, why does it need to be inverted? What am I missing? It already fits a Jab mount and it has a dry sump.

With my turret installation , being able to vent heat and exhaust on top will benifit in quieter running with straight outs .

 

Its already fuel injected , so flipping it just leaves the gravity drain of oil from rocker gear back to sump .

 

Some sort of oil feed and return to and from the rockers without poolong oil in the now sloping upwards rocker tubes .

 

Mike

 

 

 

[facthunter]

The CNC'd look doesn't impress me, nor does a paint job. Head material (aircooled particularly) has to be the highest specifications . Ease of casting is one quality for the material but sometimes an object is made easy to cast to the detriment of function.

 

Also Vacuum casting has been around for more than 60 years. Using metal dies( Die casting) has been around forever (almost) too but the use of a particular metal containing a lot of zinc for door handles and carburetter bodies has given it a bit of a bad name.

 

Lack of porosity is more important in liquid cooled situations, but consistent quality control is more likely with vaccuum die casting , than other methods. The set up cost is considerable, but with mass production, it's allocated over a large number of items so the unit cost is smaller. AVIATION ISN'T GOING TO BE A MASS PRODUCED SITUATION. Caps lock but I will leave it.

 

The steel cylinders in the Jabiru are a potential RUST situation that few take seriously, so the nikasil is a good change, and the Al material conduct heat far better than steel. The majority of aero cylinders are STEEL for tensile strength.

 

Long through bolts used with aluminium are not without their problems either , but ALL is a compromise. Nev

 

 

[hyundai]

With all the high tech talk on this forum put your heads together and make the perfect engine. Yep all talk I think.

 

I have removed the LCHeads from my Jab done a 2.5 hour flight temps where around 190 - 205 F on cruise I am happy with that. I don't know why I put those darn LCHeads on in the first place. On take off I lift off push the nose forward get the airspeed and let it gain altitude, no pulling the stick back to impress the people on the ground. You can do that with a rotax 912 not a Jab.

 

 

[DGL Fox]

Yeah, ok, and ....?? Your comments on the cylinder, which I would be proud of and no surprise Jab showed it (if you know what you are looking at), brings up the issue of "bling".

 

Jabiru's are (were?) gorgeous engines with all their CNC'ing finish and no doubt part of their success. Now the new one above looks no better than a number of others, I wonder how that will affect sales. They should at least paint the rocker covers red.

 

The UL's stunning good looks aren't hurting it's sales for example and Rotax paint their rocker covers to take your eyes off the otherise dog's breakfast.

Isn't this a test engine? who's says this is the way it will look when they start selling them to the public...give them a chance to get all the testing done first before you start picking on how it looks...to be honest I couldn't care how it looks that's the least of their problems ...as long as they fix the problems and they keep rotating while I am in the air...

 

David