China is coming.

[bexrbetter]

I thought this might be of more interest in the General forum rather than the DMotor thread ....

 

Don't know if any of you have seen bexrbetter in disguise lately, but seriously, I was told by someone on a stand at the 2012 Oshkosh that Chinese business characters were going round trying to buy various items for cash on the spot - even complete engines. I imagine a bit of reverse engineering was planned using ultra high high quality Fosters tinnies?

And they are flying all over the world visiting air shows and minor to major aircraft manufacturers looking at how they can get into the Chinese market that's opening up right now. I've knocked back a few offers along with making a few myself. The money that's being bandied around is obscene. We are all waiting for the regulations to be put in place but it's guaranteed that "Skyroads", as my friends call them, will be opened to the public very soon.

 

I'm getting in early and with a superior bespoke engine designed for aircraft, I'm not a glorified VW engine fan and airframes are coming to make use of them.

 

With what I know of here already the world of aviation is going to be rocked over the next 5 years, my 1/4 price engines are just the beginning (I believe I will be one of the first out of the box).

 

One of those things I know is a city 10 minutes away from me has put in massive infrastructure to to develop and support a local Aviation industrial estate. They are making the Professors and Masters and resources of the University available free of charge and have built a vocational school to train workers to build and service planes etc, etc.

 

Guanghan; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanghan you can see the National University of Aviation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Aviation_Flight_University_of_China a few kilometers to the South East and obviously the massive runway. I live in both Chengdu but primarily Deyang, 10 kms North East of Guanghan.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Just a quick one Bex,. . . . .

 

I speak passable French, some Turkish, some Greek, some Australian, a bit of PNG Pidgin, American, Gaelic, a bit of Welsh, and standard Black Country Ingilsh. . . . Is Chinese that hard to learn ? ? ? ?

 

Phil

 

 

[Gentreau]

Which Chinese Phil, there's a few different dialects.

 

I was in Beijing with a colleague who speaks native Cantonese and the had some difficulty .....

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

I am right.....my son works in China teaching english in a school just north of Shanghai...I have my own personal translator...he can speak both dialects one better than the other though but passable.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Which Chinese Phil, there's a few different dialects.I was in Beijing with a colleague who speaks native Cantonese and the had some difficulty .....

 

I am right.....my son works in China teaching english in a school just north of Shanghai...I have my own personal translator...he can speak both dialects one better than the other though but passable.

Yes there are about 70 languages and of course Mandarine (taught in all schools) and Cantonese down South are the main 2. Then there's all the small village variations of the 70 odd. It's bizzare watching my wife who is fluent in Mandarine, although she grew up with Sichuan Province language, trying to speak to another Chinese person in a different part of China. She can not understand Cantonese at all but they can understand some of what she says because they all learn it in school and watch it on TV. She can speak about 5 Chinese languages.

 

Kyle, Shanghai language is unique in all of China that it has no crossover with any other, it is unique to itself and no other Chinese person can understand a word of what a Shanhai'ese is saying! - of course they speak fluent Mandarine as well there so no problem.

 

Phil, it's quite hard to start, the 5 tones certainly don't help, and then makes more sense when you can get some sentence structures together. Because of all the slight language variations they need a complete sentence from you to confirm what you are saying rather than simple words we tend to use. Anyone who has been here has noticed how long a conversation takes, mostly they are repeating what the other person has just said and checking that's what they actually said posed as a question and it's this constant confirmation that seems to take forever.

 

But there's more to it than just language, you importantly need to understand behavioural cultures and after 10 years I'm still just scraping the surface and watch amusingly as new Westerners here struggle with that regardless of how well they speak the language. In their arrogance they forget who's sandbox they are playing in so it's much better here to be quiet and look like an idiot rather than opening your mouth and proving you are one.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Bex

 

My son did a course here when he was 20 on how to teach english to chinese...without actually knowing chinese he then got a job at a school doing that in Xian he worked there for 18 months where he picked up a lot of the language. When he came back here he decided to do a Batchelor of Linguistists at university here at griffith uni he was doing both Chinese and Japanese he eventually dropped the Japanese to concentrate on the chinese only both was way to difficult. after 18 months he got a scholarship to a uni in china north east of Bejing Dalian I think it was he spent a year there in the deep end at their uni and when he came back here he finished his degree and passed well. That was only late last year he wanted to go back and do some proper teaching so he put himself out there and this mob snapped him up he has a contract for 12 months I think or maybe 2 years he seems to be really enjoying it as these ones he teach are majority of adults not young or teenage kids. He is much better paid at this job as well he gets his unit supplied by the school he just needs to pay for the utilities plus a very good wage. He is teaching in Wuxi

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Kyle if your boy fair dinkum lobs to Chengdu for a sqizz I'll giv'em a hand being a banana bender, giz a yell when he puts a knot in the bluey and I'll put the billy on but larrikins welcome freckle punchers not so. - How you going there Phil with your "Australian", keeping up?

 

 

[paulh]

So if the Chinese are getting ready to manufacture aircraft engines suitable for ultralights and LSA's etc does it follow that in a few years time we could have low cost new technology engines that can be affordably replaced at the end of their lifespan a bit like how the consumer products i.e. flat screen tv's etc we all have at home have gone?

 

If some Chinese business people choose to put up the cash I'm sure good engineering design work, metallurgy etc can be procured.

 

And then someone will have to pay for all the testing and quality assurance etc. before the aviation establishment embrace new engines, time will tell I suppose. I wonder how rotax will respond?

 

 

[Billzilla]

I endorse this product and/or service. :D

 

 

[facthunter]

Be just like a drill. If it burns out they give you another one. Nev

 

 

[bexrbetter]

If some Chinese business people choose to put up the cash I'm sure good engineering design work, metallurgy etc can be procured.

I kind of read that as a suggestion that "good engineering and design work, metallurgy etc" isn't already the standard here, you would be wrong.

 

There's a big difference between what you buy at Supercheap and what Chinese buy at their equivalent Supercheap, Chinese people generally aren't stupid enough or tight ass'ed enough to buy the crap some of you guys are willing to and what's more, you keep buying it over and over and then comment it's a whole countries fault for your own poor decision.

 

I popped into Supercheap and bought a 4" grinder for $19.99 (over 10 years ago) and it lasted 3 hours, just long enough to do what I had to do and was as happy as a pig in poo. No complaints about another country, it was my decision to buy a piece of crap and I got exactly what I paid for.

 

Moral; Stop buying crap, it's that simple. Or if you do, some proper allocation of responsibility please.

 

So if the Chinese are getting ready to manufacture aircraft engines suitable for ultralights and LSA's etc does it follow that in a few years time we could have low cost new technology engines that can be affordably replaced at the end of their lifespan a bit like how the consumer products i.e. flat screen tv's etc we all have at home have gone?

That's my plan Stan but try one year.

 

I wonder how rotax will respond?

Like many others in history, first they'll do the "trust" campaign, then they'll make their own in India (cause that's cheaper than China) and hypocritically stay with the "trust" program.

 

 

[M61A1]

Any chance they'll be getting into hydrogen fuel cells and electric power as well?

 

I'd love to see that to get affordable/practical.

 

 

[Gentreau]

Kyle if your boy fair dinkum lobs to Chengdu for a sqizz I'll giv'em a hand being a banana bender, giz a yell when he puts a knot in the bluey and I'll put the billy on but larrikins welcome freckle punchers not so. - How you going there Phil with your "Australian", keeping up?

Coming back to the topic... Bexr, what would you estimate is the potential domestic chinese market for light aircraft in the LSA/600kg category, once the regulations are in place ? If that market is as large as I suspect, there would be rapid and extensive testing at home on which to base development and export sales.

 

.

 

 

[kevinfrost]

A week before Easter 2012 three Chinese were brought to Kadina on the pretence of looking at an a/c to buy. A friend of mine had built the kit a/c and it was pre arranged for myself to demonstrate the a/c which I did with one of them (David)who spoke little english but was a commercial pilot. He found out I had a Jab 120 and wanted to go up in that. Was wrapped in both. I was soon aware it was a evaluation exercise and they didn't come all the way from china to look at one a/c.

 

One seemed to be the money man, one was an engineer, went over everything. The other a pilot. Cashed right up.

 

Offered to pay my way to china.(didn't get to talk return air fares). I declined the offer.

 

They apparently bought the manufacturing rights to produce the a/c in china. I was told by the one (Hubert) who was the photographer and money man that they owned there own air field and that china was opening up their airways for recreational flying.

 

After leaving Kadina I was fairly certain the were heading for Temora to get a few more ideas.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Which Chinese Phil, there's a few different dialects.I was in Beijing with a colleague who speaks native Cantonese and the had some difficulty .....

Hi Clive,

 

I thought Mandarin was the most spoken language on the planet, but that was before wikipedia ( ! )

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

A week before Easter 2012 three Chinese were brought to Kadina on the pretence of looking at an a/c to buy. A friend of mine had built the kit a/c and it was pre arranged for myself to demonstrate the a/c which I did with one of them (David)who spoke little english but was a commercial pilot. He found out I had a Jab 120 and wanted to go up in that. Was wrapped in both. I was soon aware it was a evaluation exercise and they didn't come all the way from china to look at one a/c.One seemed to be the money man, one was an engineer, went over everything. The other a pilot. Cashed right up.

Offered to pay my way to china.(didn't get to talk return air fares). I declined the offer.

 

They apparently bought the manufacturing rights to produce the a/c in china. I was told by the one (Hubert) who was the photographer and money man that they owned there own air field and that china was opening up their airways for recreational flying.

 

After leaving Kadina I was fairly certain the were heading for Temora to get a few more ideas.

What was the aircraft they bought the rights for?

 

 

[Guest Pontius Pilot]

china was opening up their airways for recreational flying

This will be the interesting thing to look out for. As it stands the Chinese are bloody awful for allowing the slightest deviation from prescribed routes. I'm talking in an airline sense, where they will utterly refuse to grant permission to offset from an airway to avoid some really nasty weather. One of our guys had to declare an emergency last year in order that he could steer round the mother of all evil weather. This resulted in some serious politicking once he got on the ground and he was very worried about spending some time in a Chinese jail. Everything is still very much controlled by the military and the Chinese are still paranoid about anything that's not Chinese flying over their country. With this sort of approach to very regulated flying I can only imagine what they'd be like with opening their skies to allow freedom for light aircraft. With their extremely tight grip on airspace and their ideological intransigence I don't think I'll be booking any recreational aviation trips to China in the near (or far) future.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

The other a pilot. Cashed right up.Offered to pay my way to china.(didn't get to talk return air fares). I declined the offer.

You're safe, they would have flown you over, gotten as much info out of you as they can, looked after you very well and flown you back, deeply ingrained into their culture to be responsible for your well being and safety and they take it very seriously. Ironically they will also stab you in the back doing business with you in every unethical (to us) possible way they can.

 

Social attitudes and business attitudes are diametrically opposed here.

 

They apparently bought the manufacturing rights to produce the a/c in china.

Are you obliged to not tell us?

 

 

[kevinfrost]

I'll have to ask the manufacturer if its ok to say. He did tell me that they would be manufacturing them in china. That was about 10 months ago. I guess it's still go. I don't see the reason for secrecy but I'm not in his shoes.

 

 

[Guest SAJabiruflyer]

Spending quite some time in Southern China, I see a land of immense opportunity, and people taking advantage of said opportunity. They have an incredible work ethic - they dont care if they work 7 days a week - they care about making money. For example, my Chinese uncle has a 5 story house in a town in southern china. They live on the first floor. The 2nd floor is full of home made alcohol (mixed with snakes, mice, bee's etc. Pretty tasty too.). 3rd floor is full of Birds. 4th Floor is full of Turtles. 5th floor has more birds, some small tree's with a special fruit. And attached to the house is a car detailing business with a dozen workers. He works 7 days a week and doesnt care - he's making money, can send his kids to the best schools etc.

 

On the subject of "cheap" goods we buy here - when you buy the equivalent cheap goods there, they work a hell of a lot better, and last a lot longer, than the cheap crap they push upon us here. That's because we're stupid enough, and tight enough, to want to buy the cheap crap they push on us in the first place! The Chinese business people are smart enough to have found out what we want, and give it to us!.

 

My Accountant for my business is - you guessed it - Chinese. I can call him at 10pm at night with a question and he'll actually answer his phone.

 

We could learn a lot from the Chinese...

 

 

[Aldo]

Most of you guys think Jabiru engines are unreliable, wait until you get an engine made in China, you will think Jabiru is the equivilant of a Lycoming. One of the things that I heave learn't about China is that if you want good gear, (and it is available) it will cost you just as much as it costs here, I would be very wary of inexpensive Chinese aircraft engines & parts.

 

 

[Guest SAJabiruflyer]

Most of you guys think Jabiru engines are unreliable, wait until you get an engine made in China, you will think Jabiru is the equivilant of a Lycoming. One of the things that I heave learn't about China is that if you want good gear, (and it is available) it will cost you just as much as it costs here, I would be very wary of inexpensive Chinese aircraft engines & parts.

That could be true. It depends if they decide to make them reliable - then they'll be just as good as others. If they want to make em cheap and nasty then they will. China has the Technology and know how to make anything better than we do - if they choose to.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

This will be the interesting thing to look out for. As it stands the Chinese are bloody awful for allowing the slightest deviation from prescribed routes. With their extremely tight grip on airspace and their ideological intransigence

And yet Ultralights are buzzing around the place all the time and they have a park for them nearby, the bottom line is there are no light plane groups yet asking for what they require, good and fair balances will be reached, they always are. just early days yet.

 

I don't think I'll be booking any recreational aviation trips to China in the near (or far) future.

Well nothing is clear or decided at the moment and you would certainly be missing out.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Most of you guys think Jabiru engines are unreliable, wait until you get an engine made in China,

It's a credit to this forum that it took so long before the predictable person came along, in car forums it happens within 2 or 3 posts.

 

I would be very wary of inexpensive Chinese aircraft engines & parts.

I take that offensively so I suggest you go visit a taxidermist.

 

 

[Jabiru7252]

Most of you guys think Jabiru engines are unreliable, wait until you get an engine made in China, you will think Jabiru is the equivilant of a Lycoming. One of the things that I heave learn't about China is that if you want good gear, (and it is available) it will cost you just as much as it costs here, I would be very wary of inexpensive Chinese aircraft engines & parts.

What do you base these comments on? Not that I would have a clue. Have you got your hands on one and stripped it, examined it, tested it etc. By the way, in the 30 years since I started flying, I have nenevr had a Jab engine give trouble (touch wood) but a Lycoming threw a rod on me.