China is coming.

[damkia]

(Reporter Sum Yung Guy)

now there's a name you can trust......

 

"G'day mate. I'm looking for Sum Yung Guy..."

 

"What is his name?.."

 

 

[bexrbetter]

now there's a name you can trust......"G'day mate. I'm looking for Sum Yung Guy..."

Took long enough for someone to notice my addition

 

 

[turboplanner]

I believe I may have been inadvertently drawn into a turf war on this thread as a result of the following three posts.

 

 

Bexrbetter #47

 

The aircraft initially priced at about $ 110,000, will mainly be exported to the North American market and is expected to be put into mass production capable of a maximum annual output of 1000 planes.

 

 

Fly_Tornado #49

 

Cessna aren't selling anywhere near 1000 162s a year...

 

 

Turboplanner #50

 

You missed the BS clause FT - "capable of"

 

 

For the benefit of anyone (neither including nor excluding FT) who may have construed this as anything less than a humorous exchange, if we delete my #50 Australian Language version, and add this British language version, hopefully the meaning will be clearer:

 

 

“You may possibly missed the “get out” clause commonly used by manufacturers to indicate production quantities which may or may not have us believe figures more favourable to the story, by adding upon the basic sentence words to the effect of “capable of”, which allows a manufacturer to produce, for example one hundred, and still be able to point to his original statement as being correct.”

 

 

And for greater clarity:

 

 

“If for example a manufacturer leaves out “capable of” then he is held to account for “failing” even if he produces 999.”

 

 

[Guernsey]

Well guys and gals I am " capable of " sorting out this turf war but you may have to wait a little while for the solution.

 

Alan.

 

 

[Admin]

http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/china-plane-supermarket-flies-under-restrictions-globalpost.61447/

[fly_tornado]

over capacity in production facilities adds some cost to the price of finished aircraft. imagine how cheap those 162s would be if they could sell a 1000 a year.

 

 

[kevinfrost]

Sorry for the late reply Kyle. Re aircraft kit to china.

 

Spoke to the marketer of the Australian designed kit a/c last night. The deal to manufacture and market the a/c in China is done and dusted. Until they have built the a/c and start marketing they wish not to mention the the a/c, so I will abide by their request.

 

As bexrbetter indicated, the Chinese are cashed up and are still prepared to fly the marketer and two others with experience on the type over and back, all expenses paid.

 

I wish both parties the best of luck. I have no doubt that China will a dominant force in automotive and high tech manufacture in the near future. You only have to look where the Japanese were in the mid 50s and China has one hell of a head start compared to the Japan situation.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Thanks for the update Kevin.

 

I have no doubt that China will a dominant force in automotive and high tech manufacture in the near future. You only have to look where the Japanese were in the mid 50s and China has one hell of a head start compared to the Japan situation.

Yeah a lot of people presume that but they are people who don't live in the culture and it's the culture that will prevent them ever becoming more than "very good but still have problems".

 

Simply put, there's too much low level graft and too many components suppliers to control so something will always slip through the net. Of course they will sell well simply due to price.

 

When I first arrived here I noticed in my many visits to Companies that the Purchasing Officer often drove a car while other workers were on motorbikes or bicycles, what does that tell you ...

 

 

[kevinfrost]

Having worked in production control some years back. Mercedes and Commodore, i can relate to that here in Australia and it apples to most western companies.

 

 

[Aldo]

and Aldo, give the guy a chance...find out more by asking more questions and give him the benefit of the doubt instead of making a blanket statement that is sure to get up the noses of others

All, please accept my appologies the statement wasn't meant to be inflammatory just proceed with caution and I have a bit of experience.

 

 

[robinsm]

Remember the day when everyone complained about anything made in japan. Look where they are now. The same thing will happen with china. The chinese industrial are masters at copying and I can see them being a major force in manufacturing, and producing quality goods in the near future. The chinese, as were the Japanese, are consumer driven, and if the consumer wants quality then they will get it faster and cheaper than we can produce it. Look at the spread of the great wall brand of vehicles etc. As far as Jabiru engines go, compare how long they have been in production compared to the major established brands and then tell me the established brands, like lycoming, rotax, continental etc did not have their teething problems as well. The best way to get a quality australian motor in your plane is to support the newer manufacturers like Jabiru who are prepared to put it out there and develop a local product. Your new cars have inherent problems that are fixed in the next model, why should an engine be any different. Just sayin'

 

 

[bexrbetter]

The Chinese industrial are masters at copying and I can see them being a major force in manufacturing, and producing quality goods in the near future. '

There seems to be some misunderstanding, they are already the major force in manufacturing and have the quality, it's just, and I keep saying it over and over and over again, cheapskate, tightasses creating demand for the crap and the Chinese, unlike many other countries, are willing to meet that demand.

 

I am today assembling an outdoor 2 person swingseat and it's great quality except they didn't include assembly instructions and the tool kit consists of one spanner - all of the bolts have nyloc nuts, try doing them up with just one spanner .... It's that annoying idiotic small stuff they have to get right.

 

The best way to get a quality australian motor in your plane is to support the newer manufacturers like ....

... bexrbetter's engine.

 

Thanks for the plug Mate.

 

 

[Aldo]

So the analogy is you went to Supercheap, bought cheap crap and it's somebody else fault. That you're not capable of doing business in another country doesn't make it the countries fault, the arrogance of many Westerners who come here and are "going to show them how it's done" and I have been told those exact words, is wonderfully balanced by how many go home with their tails between their legs.

Bex

I'm not sure what your background is and I don't know how long you have spent in China or outside Australia and for that matter and I'm certain you don't know mine but I have had a little more than 10 minutes experience.

 

I have spent the better part of 25 years working and doing business in Asia (China included) and the rest of the world, the only continent I have not done buisness on is Antarcita. I have never had the attitude that "I'm going to show them how it's done" but I do have the experience (hip pocket) of trusting that others will do it to the specification required.

 

I have found that the save face attitude in most of Asia (China included) is the most dangerous attitude of all, please find me someone in China or elsewhere in Asia that will admit to it being their fault when there is a problem, and this will be a major hurdle where avaition is involved.

 

One particular example was to do with the gavalanizing process on 8000 1" x 8" bolts, when we torqued them up we got to 75% of the required torque and the bolts sheared (wasn't their fault according to them) we sued and won, they didn't follow the specification and this happens all the time. This was part of a M$600 job not a $100,000 light sport aircraft.

 

They can make excellent equipment but as I said before the cost is similar to having it made in Aust or the US, if you want it at that quality you need to have your own engineering & QA people on site the entire time so that they follow to the letter the specification you require. My experience has shown me that if you can't buy it for 25% of the price that you can get it here it's not worth it because of the remedial work that will be required. I'd bet money that Boeing and the others that you have quoted have more engineers & QA personnel on site than you can poke a stick at for the manufacturing process associated with their aircraft & engines.

 

Oh and by the way I don't get paid $3K a day + expenses for contract project management by other companies much larger than mine beacuse I'm an arrogant idiot and most lotto winners would be more than happy to get my companies yearly profit.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Aldo, as requested by Admin I won't pursue this any further even though addressing your contradictions would be amusing, but anyway.

 

I will answer one question, I have been living here for 10 years mostly in the design and manufacturing of machinery. My wife is one of China's leading lawyers, owns her own law firm and is a Partner in one of China's top ten. I have insights not even available to most Chinese let alone Foreigners.

 

My products do the talking for me and of course that will be in this arena soon enough to be judged, in the meantime enjoy all those Chinese parts inside your Jab engine.

 

 

[bull]

Hi-all,just-thought-i,d-say,i,m-model-mad-and-can-buy-a-complete-scale-2-meter-wingspan-b17-bomber-ready-to-fly-[and-they-fly-well-too]from-china-delivered-for-half-the-cost-of-just-a-radio-from-AUSTRALIAN[get-as-much-as-we-can]hobby-shops...............

 

 

[Billzilla]

Hi-all,just-thought-i,d-say,i,m-model-mad-and-can-buy-a-complete-scale-2-meter-wingspan-b17-bomber-ready-to-fly-[and-they-fly-well-too]from-china-delivered-for-half-the-cost-of-just-a-radio-from-AUSTRALIAN[get-as-much-as-we-can]hobby-shops...............

Could you perhaps buy a space-bar for your keyboard please?

 

 

[flyvulcan]

Hi-all,just-thought-i,d-say,i,m-model-mad-and-can-buy-a-complete-scale-2-meter-wingspan-b17-bomber-ready-to-fly-[and-they-fly-well-too]from-china-delivered-for-half-the-cost-of-just-a-radio-from-AUSTRALIAN[get-as-much-as-we-can]hobby-shops...............

Hi Bull,

 

Just be careful to fully check the credentials of your supplier by an independent verifiable source.

 

If you have bought just the one so far, be careful about the scam where you buy one at a very reduced price (subsidised by the scammers own money) then send money for a subsequent large order which the scammers then pocket...

 

Hopefully, your supplier is legit and all will be ok but be careful.

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

 

PS Bexrbetter is doing something we have all been hoping for, ie to provide an affordable and reliable aero engine for our projects. He certainly has my encouragement because if he is successful, it is for the benefit of many. Go Bex!

 

 

[dazza 38]

Could you perhaps buy a space-bar for your keyboard please?

Bull's spacebar is broken and he is out in the bush.

 

 

[Billzilla]

Bull's spacebar is broken and he is out in the bush.

ALT + 0160 = space ;)

 

 

[Marty_d]

You.could.always.use.the.full.stop.method,.first.created.by.Julius.Caesar.I.believe...

 

BeforethatallthelettersinLatinsimplyrantogetherlikethisandyouhadtoworkoutwherethewordswere.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

PS Bexrbetter is doing something we have all been hoping for, ie to provide an affordable and reliable aero engine for our projects. He certainly has my encouragement because if he is successful, it is for the benefit of many. Go Bex!

That's engine and planes actually, they compliment each other.

 

Thank you for your kind words and you will hear the full story soon enough which is quite favorable to Australia. I have tried very hard to keep everything about this project Australian experiencing some very frustrating levels while doing so especially when I have Americans and Euros knocking on my door.

 

I do have 3 Daughters and 3 Granddaughters living in Oz and I do care about their futures.

 

 

[Marty_d]

If you could get a good Rotax 912-equivalent out in the next 5 years, I'd appreciate it... might finish the airframe by then...

 

 

[fly_tornado]

have you noticed that most new aero engines are designed for airframes that don't exist?

 

 

[Marty_d]

have you noticed that most new aero engines are designed for airframes that don't exist?

Don't know about "designed for", but I meant that my airframe might exist in 5 years. Only tail feathers and most of one wing exist now.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

If you could get a good Rotax 912-equivalent out in the next 5 years, I'd appreciate it... might finish the airframe by then...

More like 1 year. As soon as IPR stuff is done I will start and keep blogs of the prototype development, the IPR work has taken considerably longer than expected as there's a similar but expired US patent and I am working on the non-obvious claims detail.

 

Looking at 2 models currently to develop (in modular form), 80 to 90hp and 110 to 120hp. Of course I am going after Rotax's market segment but with some very interesting and logical (for airframe anyway) layouts including a beautifly simply answer to reduction drive.

 

Also all major parts are of mass produced OEM origin, maintenance and servicing costs will be of a level not seen before in the aero industry.

 

I am frustrated I can't tell you more but as with IPR any pre-public disclosure immediately nullifies your claim, that's the law.

 

have you noticed that most new aero engines are designed for airframes that don't exist?

Not sure what you mean there but I'll throw a bunch of answers that may suit;

 

Our first airframe (Oz) exists currently and is flying. Other models on drawing board and knowing the Oz designer (in time) will offer nothing less than complete confidence.

 

My engine and airframe are seperate entities, not even the same company.

 

I logically expect to move many multiples of engines relative to airframes.

 

I will be using Jabiru mounts, no reason to make unique there.