Are there any Electric aircraft flying in Australia ...yet ?

[Billzilla]

I think the current problem can be pretty much summarised in two words: battery capacity.Until the battery capacity kg/kg comes reasonably close to mogas or avgas, large-scale adoption of electric flight is not going to happen.

I don't know if it's been mentioned but they don't have to approach the energy density of liquid fuels due to the much higher efficiency of electric motors.

 

A good petrol engine is going to be about 30% efficient (depending on how you measure it) while a good electric motor is comfortably over 90%. So when batteries get up around 1/3 the energy density of petrol then they'll be pretty close to the same endurance. I have everything crossed for graphene battery technology.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Yes I did and sticking with it, I did not say electric motors were not scaleable as you replied.

 

 

 

 

You guys do know how long this has been spun for don't you? Google something like "new battery tech just around the corner..." or similar and see just how many years it's been going on for.

 

I have spent on and off the last 5 or so years looking for a viable 'new energy' product to manufacturer, it doesn't exist nor is it soon to. China is understandably desperate to lower their reliance on coal and would throw trillions at the right product, it ain't happening. If BYD China, the world's largest battery manufacturer as well as a major car manufacturer can't do it , nobody can.

 

The increments of development are minute and only fine tuning of what we already know and have and no one has yet resolved the cost issue.

That's a bit defeatist isn't it Bexrbetter?

 

Just because it's not possible right now does not mean it's not possible very soon. History is full of impossible things becoming possible.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Just because it's not possible right now does not mean it's not possible very soon.

Well how can I argue with that?

 

I believe that the many many years that this has been going on for and the obscene amounts of money, of yours and my money by the way, justifies my cynical stance on the matter.

 

My information is there won't be anything worthwhile until 2020 and I firmly believe that the advances in diesel engines will push that a lot further back as well.

 

If you think I'm anti electric you would also be wrong, let me tell you why. My main city of Chengdu (where the Pandas are) has a total ban of petrol motorcycles within the 3rd outer ring road. I often sit outside next to the busiest road in Chengdu with a few friends and the peacefulness (relative to sitting next to a major city road) with thousands of electric bikes wizzing past is wonderful not to mention the immediate air quality*.

 

*All of Chengdu's buses, taxis and nearly all delivery vans are on natural gas. There's also no cars generally older than 10 years and all of them are at least Euro 3 and no modifications to cars are allowed at all so no dickheads with loud exhausts etc. - and best of all, no Hardley Davidsons.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Hey I fully support your right to be cynical, I am too in most things. Also I bow to your knowledge and experience of things electric, as my knowledge extends to being able to plug in a kettle (and even that I don't get right half the time).

 

When it comes to technological advances though I'm optimistic. I'm hoping they'll have an android to pop my brain in when the body's worn out. (They'd better get a move on...)

 

 

[M61A1]

I think the current problem can be pretty much summarised in two words: battery capacity.Until the battery capacity kg/kg comes reasonably close to mogas or avgas, large-scale adoption of electric flight is not going to happen.

Hydrogen fuel cells are the go.....hydrogen in, and electricity out. They have been working on them for some time now. http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2008/q2/080403a_nr.html

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Hydrogen fuel cells are the go.....hydrogen in, and electricity out. They have been working on them for some time now. http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2008/q2/080403a_nr.html

Right back at ya ....

 

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/bmw-s-hydrogen-7-not-as-green-as-it-seems-a-448648.html

 

 

[M61A1]

Right back at ya .... http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/bmw-s-hydrogen-7-not-as-green-as-it-seems-a-448648.html

Not really a good comparison....they are using hydrogen to run an internal combustion engine, the other uses hydrogen to create electricity directly. I don't think we will get an electrical equivalent for the internal combustion engine for a while yet, but I look forward to it when it happens. They're even developing aircraft with solar cells built into the surface of the wings and tailplanes as part of the structure.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

but I look forward to it when it happens. .

May I ask why please?

 

 

[M61A1]

May I ask why please?

The simplicity, internal combustion engines are quite complex to achieve what they do, an electric motor has one moving part.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

The simplicity, internal combustion engines are quite complex to achieve what they do, an electric motor has one moving part.

Thanks for your reply.

 

Ironically I am sitting here waiting for electricians to come and tear into my walls and remove/repair/replace the wiring to the rear half of my house as it has shorted out inside the wall (roof got flooded recently) - my house has no moving parts but it stopped!

 

There seems to be a misconception that moving parts are bad, most of you drive modern'ish cars with thousands of moving parts yet they just keep going and going don't they and when they stop do you know what the majority of the issues are?

 

Something electrical.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

But consider how many parts are in your phone, electronics are evolving.

 

 

[M61A1]

Thanks for your reply.Ironically I am sitting here waiting for electricians to come and tear into my walls and remove/repair/replace the wiring to the rear half of my house as it has shorted out inside the wall (roof got flooded recently) - my house has no moving parts but it stopped!

 

There seems to be a misconception that moving parts are bad, most of you drive modern'ish cars with thousands of moving parts yet they just keep going and going don't they and when they stop do you know what the majority of the issues are?

 

Something electrical.

It's no misconception that the moving parts fail. Internal combustion has high temperatures, causing erosion, stretch & wear, millions of high load cycles. They do well for what they are, but most electric motors will run for years with little or no maintenance, and have a high degree of efficiency. No valves, cranks, pistons, rods, through bolts, and most have no liquid cooling to break.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

It's no misconception that the moving parts fail. Internal combustion has high temperatures, causing erosion, stretch & wear, millions of high load cycles.

So you're saying you own a British car?

 

Well millions of us get into our cars daily without even a nanoseconds thought as to if we will get to our destination or not and that apathy comes from over 100 years, trillions of miles and multi billions of dollars of development, I'm satisfied and confident.

 

but most electric motors will run for years

Yes electric motors will run for years and years and years and years and years and years and years but they bloody well stop every single time electricity doesn't reach them - controllers fail, batteries short, cells die, terminals get corroded, wiring overheats etc, none of the stuff that moves is the stuff that fails.

 

Every single electric motor stopped in our factory last week as did every electric motor in every factory surrounding us when they turned the juice off to replace some old insulators down the street a bit.

 

There is more to an electric vehicle than just the incredibly, unbelievably, outstandingly reliable motor.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

Every single electric motor stopped in our factory last week as did every electric motor in every factory surrounding us when they turned the juice off to replace some old insulators down the street a bit.

There is more to an electric vehicle than just the incredibly, unbelievably, outstandingly reliable motor.

But is that really so different from the regular engine stoppages that happen in aviation, and motoring come to that, when they 'inexplicably' run out of fuel? And carby icing, ignition failures, break crankshafts, sticky valves, blow an oil line, burst a coolant hose. I've had every one of them, except running out of fuel, cause me forced landings and a lot more besides.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

But is that really so different from the regular engine stoppages that happen in aviation, and motoring come to that, when they 'inexplicably' run out of fuel? And carby icing, ignition failures, break crankshafts, sticky valves, blow an oil line, burst a coolant hose. I've had every one of them, except running out of fuel, cause me forced landings and a lot more besides.

Remind me not to go flying with you!

 

I don't quite know how to answer that HITC, I've been preparing engines all my life for rally cars and motocross bikes mainly and had a hell of a good run, can't remember a single failure that wasn't electrical, ie; fuel pumps a couple of times and batteries coming loose out of their mounts on rough roads along with the odd wire connection that usually breaks off at the terminal (which taught me early on not to solder them).

 

Carby icing I don't know about honestly so I bow to you guy's greater knowledge there, lets hope my EFI and a warm throttle body design resolves that issue hey.

 

By the way, I'm only debating that electric vehicles aren't bulletproof as suggested.

 

when they 'inexplicably' run out of fuel? .

I just looked it up in my Wife's dictionary and apparently 'inexplicably' means the stupid husband that didn't fill the car up even though I've been driving it for a week ... the exact situation just 2 months ago!

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

By the way, I'm only debating that electric vehicles aren't bulletproof as suggested.

Of course, nothing is bullet-proof, and the wise flyer always flies in a manner where a sudden power-train failure is no more than an inconvenience. I've been 'inconvenienced' more than 50 times in nearly 40 years of flying, mostly in the early days of ultralights but also about ten times in helicopters (even three times in turbines, but not due to engine stoppage) and GA planes, so I tend to be scanning for forced landing sites whenever possible ...

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I've been 'inconvenienced' more than 50 times in nearly 40 years of flying, mostly in the early days of ultralights but also about ten times in helicopters (even three times in turbines, but not due to engine stoppage) and GA planes,

Bloody hell, did I say yet?

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Think of all the other savings. no more oil, filters, spark plugs, leads, points, caps, thermostats, coolant, cracked coolers and exhausts, carby syncing, valve gear and head twiddling and expense of having someone fit it all.

 

 

[boingk]

And think of the lovely sounds, smells and experiences we'll miss out on... all to trade to a soulless electrical turbine whirr and a battery bank.

 

I'll keep my 1940 Continental A-65 dash 8, thanks.

 

- boingk

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Think of all the other savings. no more oil, filters, spark plugs, leads, points, caps, thermostats, coolant, cracked coolers and exhausts, carby syncing, valve gear and head twiddling and expense of having someone fit it all.

You guys create your own paradox, you live in the past then you complain about it

 

Guys, it's 2013, engines are no longer evil

 

points.

points? points?? POINTS???

 

 

[Vev]

[M61A1]

And think of the lovely sounds, smells and experiences we'll miss out on... all to trade to a soulless electrical turbine whirr and a battery bank.I'll keep my 1940 Continental A-65 dash 8, thanks.

 

- boingk

While I agree about the sound and smells, the instantaneous power, linear power curve and massive torque of the electric would probably compensate for that.

Maybe you could load your own soundtrack, like they have available for electric model aircraft. You could choose a Merlin or an R2400. Myself, I think the quiet might be nice.

 

 

[M61A1]

So you're saying you own a British car?Well millions of us get into our cars daily without even a nanoseconds thought as to if we will get to our destination or not and that apathy comes from over 100 years, trillions of miles and multi billions of dollars of development, I'm satisfied and confident.

 

Yes electric motors will run for years and years and years and years and years and years and years but they bloody well stop every single time electricity doesn't reach them - controllers fail, batteries short, cells die, terminals get corroded, wiring overheats etc, none of the stuff that moves is the stuff that fails.

 

Every single electric motor stopped in our factory last week as did every electric motor in every factory surrounding us when they turned the juice off to replace some old insulators down the street a bit.

 

There is more to an electric vehicle than just the incredibly, unbelievably, outstandingly reliable motor.

I don't think that they are the perfect motor, just that with the right power supply, they will be better and more economical than internal combustion. To get reliability and longevity from internal combustion, you add weight or cost from exotic materials. When I say economical I don't just mean less fuel, less complexity means less maintenance costs.

Every internal combustion engine will stop too, if you switch off the fuel supply, how many times do you read about that happening whether accidentally mismanaged or from complete exhaustion? I'm not talking about an aircraft connected to mains, but with it's own chemical power generator. Things will still go wrong, but I think it will be less frequent. I am under no illusion that they're perfect.

 

 

[M61A1]

I've been preparing engines all my life for rally cars and motocross bikes mainly and had a hell of a good run, can't remember a single failure that wasn't electrical, ie; fuel pumps a couple of times and batteries coming loose out of their mounts on rough roads along with the odd wire connection that usually breaks off at the terminal (which taught me early on not to solder them).

You've had a better run than me then, my experience would be the opposite, maybe 2 or 3 electrical problems causing stoppage (in 30+ years), one of those (a fuel pump on a bike) also resulting in burnt valves and blown head gaskets. I've had big ends let go, both roller and plain bearings, valve rockers break, valve stems, valve seats, thermostats (mechanical), coolant hoses, coolant pumps (again mechanical), fuel starvation from water or foreign matter, cam chains and cam belts. No Brittish cars or bikes for me, a girlfriend once had one, turned me right off them.

 

 

[boingk]

To get reliability and longevity from internal combustion, you add weight or cost from exotic materials.

Sounds like getting power to an electric motor; with weighty batteries made at great cost and with exotic materials.

 

Ba-doom-tish.

 

- boingk