150 hour or 200 hour CPL - Which is better

[Zac Wheeler]

Hello Chaps!

 

I was just wanting some information on the difference between the 150 hour and 200 hour commercial pilots licence. Firstly, i just want to check that the 150 hour is done at a flying school over about 1 year, and the 200 hour is done in your own time at your own pace. Is this correct?

 

Also, is one of them more recognised than the other? Is the 150 hour better because it is done at a school with more instructor influence, or is the 200 hour better because it gives you more experience?

 

I started flying RA-Aus with the plan to do a PPL conversion after about 40 hours and then doing the CPL. Does this mean i can only do the 200 hour course? I only flew RA in the first place to try and save money, but if i have to do 200 hours, it may be cheaper to start fresh by enrolling in a 150 hour CPL course.

 

If anyone can help answer my questions, it will be greatly appreciated!

 

Thanks

 

Zac

 

 

[Zac Wheeler]

Also i forgot to ask...

 

Can RA registered planes be flown during the CPL course to save money or do they have to be GA registered?

 

Cheers

 

 

[horsefeathers]

This post may help .....

 

http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/would-a-recreational-certificate-make-it-easy-to-get-a-ppl.56212/page-4#post-278814

 

 

[Tex]

Yes the 150hr requirement relates to the time period within which the hours were gained... hours ARE EVERYTHING (even if you are a better pilot with less hours... 'on paper' more exp) so the extra 50hrs is better than not having them; that is if someone doing 150hrs CPL and someone doing 200hrs CPL finished at the same time the 200hrs pilot (without more) would be viewed more favourably. If you can afford it and have the time however you should do the 150hrs and then spend MORE money for getting any extra endorsements you can, after 50 hours on endorsement flying you will then smoke the 200hrs CPL only pilot... simple hey?

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Assuming the quality of instruction is constant, 200 hours will always be better than 150!

 

 

[Zac Wheeler]

Thanks for the help guys. Is the extra 50 hours just solo flying being pilot in command? I read Horsefeathers' link and i think it states that the solo time flown during the commercial pilots course can be done in an RA plane. Is this correct? If so, then the 200 hour course may be a bit cheaper.

 

What you said Tex makes perfect sense, but either way a cpl will cost a lot of money. All i would like to work out is which one of the two would be cheaper - Starting off in the 150 hour course at a school, or flying RA to start with and then doing the 200 hour course.

 

 

[djpacro]

Zac, you may like to also put those questions to the CFIs of flying schools on your shortlist.

 

Info from an email from CASA that was copied to me at the time:

 

From: [email protected]]Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 11:43 AM

To: .......

 

Subject: Re: Ultralight hours - 200 HOUR CPL [sEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

 

Hi ......,

 

You are correct in that 100 hours of command time in an RA Aus registered group A (3 axis) aircraft can be counted towards 100 hours command time required for a 200 hour commercial only.

 

The hours eligible to be counted are only the hours obtained after being issued with a pilot certificate and not before. As per the definition of recognised flight time in CAR 2(e).

 

Regards

 

............

 

Self Administering Sport Aviation Organisations Section

 

Office of the Director of Aviation Safety

 

CASA

 

Ph. 131 757

[blueline]

I agree with djpacro - go ask a CFI or have a really careful read of the day vfr syllabus.

 

The 150 hour course = no RAAus time (but only 70 hrs solo). 200 hr course = 100 hrs solo (but it can be up to 100 hours of RAAus solo time).

 

As has been suggested work towards some additional ratings at the same time - at the very least a night rating. I encourage my CPL students to do at least some dual flights on an IFR flight plan.

 

Like djpacro said though - go speak to some people that really know this stuff!

 

 

[Tex]

I think they could end up around the same money but I would think the 200hrs COULD be cheaper and you can get educated in the exhilaration and experience of all types of RA aircraft, then expand your horizons :)

 

 

[Zac Wheeler]

Thanks guys, all this info has really helped. Is it possible to get some ratings such as night flying while going through the CPL? I thought all the ratings and endorsements could only be achieved once a CPL was held.

 

 

[ben87r]

Nope, you can pile it all in together as long as you still meet the required solo hours

 

 

[blueline]

Agree - it even mentions this in the day vfr syllabus. You can do pretty much any additional ratings during your CPL training.

 

 

[horsefeathers]

Thanks for the help guys. Is the extra 50 hours just solo flying being pilot in command? I read Horsefeathers' link and i think it states that the solo time flown during the commercial pilots course can be done in an RA plane. Is this correct? If so, then the 200 hour course may be a bit cheaper.What you said Tex makes perfect sense, but either way a cpl will cost a lot of money. All i would like to work out is which one of the two would be cheaper - Starting off in the 150 hour course at a school, or flying RA to start with and then doing the 200 hour course.

Hi Zac.

 

There are GST implications (I understand) that also come into the consideration of 150 Vs 200 hour comparison- make sure you get advice about this aspect as well.

 

Re 200 hours CPL course. You can do a maximum of 100 hours in a 3 axis RAA registered plane towards your CPL. This is the 100 hours in the first part of the requirement.

 

Why you can count hours in a sail plane or gyro, for example, but not a RAA jabiru towards the remaining 100 hours just shows an incredible level of stupidity on the part of CASA, from my perspective.

 

Anyway, the remaing hours have to be completed in a recognised or registered aircraft. According to CASA licencing branch, an RAA registered aircraft in NOT a "recognised aircraft", or even a "registered aircraft" - go figure!!!

 

My daughter is currently doing the 200 hour CPL course, and to be honest, the cheapest way seems to be join a club, and hire the plane at club rates, or find a club member who will rent you an aircraft at cheap rates (or fly your father's RAA aircraft :) )

 

 

[68volksy]

No point trying to save money with the CPL stuff in my opinion. If you're looking for employment down the line with a charter company or GA flying school then don't waste any money whatsoever on RA hours as they are of no use to a future employer. I've talked to a few schools and charter companies around the place and they all pretty much ignore RA-Aus hours entirely.

 

If you're looking at getting into the airlines then quit what you're doing and sign up for a cadetship with one of the airlines straightaway as that's the only way in nowadays. If you're looking to get a job with a charter company then you'll have no choice but to stump up some huge amounts of money getting your hours up in suitable aircraft. That or find a place that will let you sweep the floors in return for the odd right-seat flight ferrying aircraft or some such thing.

 

Sorry that's all a bit blunt but i'm trying out the "tough love" approach to such things lately!

 

 

[Zac Wheeler]

Hey 68volksy,

 

Had a brief look at the cadet ships, but none of the airlines say when applications open and Qantas have even suspended theirs for a while. I suppose it would be suitable since it is HECS supported, but whether or not i have the brains to get in is another question.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

According to CASA licencing branch, an RAA registered aircraft in NOT a "recognised aircraft", or even a "registered aircraft" - go figure!!!

Now that's sweet to know horsefeathers. That logically means CASA can't order Ra-Aus to pull aircraft registrations for example if that registration is not considered a recognised or valid one in the first place.

 

 

[ben87r]

Try flighttrainingadelaide.com.au and check out their vet fee course. I'm doing it and its the best if both worlds in my opinion.

 

 

[metalman]

Hi Zac.There are GST implications (I understand) that also come into the consideration of 150 Vs 200 hour comparison- make sure you get advice about this aspect as well.

Re 200 hours CPL course. You can do a maximum of 100 hours in a 3 axis RAA registered plane towards your CPL. This is the 100 hours in the first part of the requirement.

 

Why you can count hours in a sail plane or gyro, for example, but not a RAA jabiru towards the remaining 100 hours just shows an incredible level of stupidity on the part of CASA, from my perspective.

 

Anyway, the remaing hours have to be completed in a recognised or registered aircraft. According to CASA licencing branch, an RAA registered aircraft in NOT a "recognised aircraft", or even a "registered aircraft" - go figure!!!

 

My daughter is currently doing the 200 hour CPL course, and to be honest, the cheapest way seems to be join a club, and hire the plane at club rates, or find a club member who will rent you an aircraft at cheap rates (or fly your father's RAA aircraft :) )

Where would I find the reference that states that RAA aircraft are not recognised or registered, I have heard this before but it was " in the opinion" of someone at CRASHA but no reg was quoted, I'd like to see it if possible

 

 

[djpacro]

Mat, the Flight Crew Licensing Manual is fairly easy reading which references the regs. http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/manuals/regulate/fcl/010r0301.pdf

 

See Reg 5.115 for hours required for the 200 hour CPL syllabus - not just any hours but "recognised flight time" and note "registered" or "recognised" aeroplane.

 

Reg 2 has the definitions. eg

 

recognised flight time means flight time that is:....

(e) in the case of flight time in a group A ultralight:

 

(i) flown by the holder of a pilot certificate, either before or after the certificate was issued to the holder, being a pilot certificate, other than a student certificate, issued by Recreational Aviation Australia Inc.; and

 

(ii) recorded in the holder’s logbook and certified by a member of Recreational Aviation Australia Inc. who is authorised by that body to certify flight time.

 

......

 

group A ultralight means an aircraft that is classified by Recreational Aviation Australia Inc. as a group A ultralight.

You could argue that differs from the CASA email I quoted earlier and I would agree with you but then I don't get to decide. i.e. once some-one has a RAA pilot certificate then the flying before the certificate was issued as well as the flying after the certificate was issued. (I don't know, was the reg changed after the CASA email?) Ask your CFI.But all of this is being tossed out starting from the end of this year as the new Part 61 is out.

 

 

[metalman]

Cool thanks Dave, had a good read, do you know where the definition( in CASA speak ) is for a recognised aircraft

 

Where can we find a draft of part 61?

 

Found it ;-)

 

 

[djpacro]

Cool thanks Dave, had a good read, do you know where the definition( in CASA speak ) is for a recognised aircraftWhere can we find a draft of part 61?

Found it ;-)

See my earlier post re Reg 2. Part 61 has been issued, so take no notice of the draft.

[Phil Perry]

Assuming the quality of instruction is constant, 200 hours will always be better than 150!

Very Interesting to read some of these posts with regard to the hours required prior to Commercial Flight training. . . . . I can see ( obviously ) that SOME Idea of flight theory // practice is a reasonably good idea, if the commercials plucked joe average off the street, then perhaps he would not be a sutable student if he didn;t like his body moving in three axes. . . . and felt sick.

 

When I was flying in Australia in the early 1970s, the minimum logbook flying hours requirement for the issue of a commercial ticket was 165. In the UK it has been 750 hours, PLUS an Instrument Rating for many years.

 

This may / or may not be sensible, as most commercial pilot training organisations would rather that you learn THEIR idea of what a pilot should be, and how THEY want you to behave. . . rather than, after the various wars, where experienced pilots were snapped up by the airlines because of exactly that,. . ie they had EXPERIENCE. Very soon after this the airlines found that having the "Right Stuff" attitude in a wartime bomber was of little practical use in a commercial environment, where team work is of vital importance, and the "I'm the captain,. . . do as I say and keep your gob shut " Attitude simply led to too many stupid accidents, where a co-pilot was terrified at the thought of questioning the judgment of his captain for fear of being blackballed for life. . . even if it was obvious to him that the skipper was making a grave error. . . . thre are quite a few cockpit audio recordings of incidents similar to this. . . .

 

Most airline training organisations in the UK pull high academic scoring students straight out of college, then teach them to fly in a PA28, then stick them into a twin, then teach them how to fly on the clocks and dials, and ONLY then re-assess them to see what sort of aircraft they should be uptrained for, ie, turboprops or jets as required. This way, they have brainwashed the student into their way of thinking and operating, and this is why most fresh company trained airline pilots are more like bloody robots than normal people, ( I've met quite a few of these ) they are almost always, to a man, VERY mild mannered, and everyone is their master. There have been a few exceptions, who have gone the route and seen the bullshit for what it is and broken out of the standard mould. One of these is my mate Pablo Mason, and OK, OK, he was a Tornado Pilot in Gulf War one,. . . . so I realise he doesn't exactly fit the abovementioned profile completely. . . but he became an airbus captain and worked for many years at this job, he was damned good at it and very popular with his crews and especially his passengers, due to his humourous cabin announcements . . .until he allowed a panicking passenger to be escorted to the cockpit during a busy sector of the flight, as the cabin staff were afraid he would lose it completely. Pablo's friendly co-pilot grassed him up to the company, for being a human being, doing his job properly and calming down a problem passenger,. . . and he was chucked out of his job. . . . . Just like that.

 

I know that I'm defending him because he's my mate, but I can't help thinking that the airline got rid of him because he did not fit their standard mould, and they didn't like non-robots flying their aeroplanes, no matter how popular he was with the passengers, nor how bloody good he was likely to have been in an emergency situation with all his previous experience in the RAF.

 

His two sons flew in Gulf war marque 2 as well, ( what a family ! ! ! ) He now flies with me. . . . and has never ONCE said anything which was likely to make me feel inadequate as a pilot in command,. . . he only offers advice if I ask. . . .and for a living he runs a small hotel with his wife. What a waste of a brilliant pilot. . . . . What they really ought to have done was make homa training captain, and possibly imbued in other pilots some of his experience. . . . . . but this my friends, appears to be the nature of the beast. If yer face don't fit . . . . yer out.

 

One you hand over control to him though, . . . geeeez,. . . .it's like the altimeter has frozen solid at the decreed height, and the last time we blundered into cloud cos I wasn't looking where I was going properly . . . . I just said those six useful words,. . . . "Bloody hell Pab, . . . .YOU HAVE CONTROL. . . ."

 

On another, but similar tack. . . .

 

I heard today that some bloke in the UK has become an assistant flying instructor. This is a system we have hee, where you start as an ASSISTANT flying instructor, but you are not allowed to send anyone on a first solo flight. This can only be done by a Qfi, who will check your student to see if you are correct, and theat they appear to have the wherewithall to take off and land without killing themselves or damaging the flying appliance.

 

Someone told me that his feller has a total flight time in his logbook of 179 hours.

 

Now, . . . if I am being super-critical here, someone please tell me BUT . . . .In my considered opinion,. . . . I cannot honestly see how someone with such a small level of experience can possibly have learned enough to be expected to TEACH ab initio students.

 

This is just my OWN opinion, but I would have thought that . . . once you have had around 500 - 600 hours of VARIED flight experience, and you are a good communicator, well. . . maybe THEN you might consider TEACHING OTHERS. Otherwise, the way we are going, the whole bloody thing is going to be slowly DUMBED DOWN to a lower general level. I don't mean to be rude to young instructors here, . . . .what does the TEAM THINK ? ? ? ?

 

Phil

 

 

[Zac Wheeler]

Really interesting reading Phil, thanks for your words of wisdom. I think that as a young student pilot myself, i would now prefer to head in the direction of having more hours before gaining a CPL. Everyone knows that hours of experience is everything and even though i might have a CPL at 150 hours, potential employers still may not offer a job due to a lack of hours.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Really interesting reading Phil, thanks for your words of wisdom. I think that as a young student pilot myself, i would now prefer to head in the direction of having more hours before gaining a CPL. Everyone knows that hours of experience is everything and even though i might have a CPL at 150 hours, potential employers still may not offer a job due to a lack of hours.

Well Zac, Maybe SOME commercial operators will take on a low time entrant, and then train him / her up to their own corporate regime, . . . whichI guess is no bad idea, at least they then have a reasonable chance that you maybe don't get airsick easily, which would be a bad thing to find out that a candidate has a morbid fear of heights or a dicky stomach if they've spent half a million bucks training him to fly 737s. . . .!

 

I think I'm just a miserable old bloke who hankers for the "Old days" of the self - improver route to commercial flying, and those days are all over now by the look of it. . . . Some years ago in the UK, the route was to build a "Reasonable" amount of flying hours, then take a flying instructor course. Then work for expenses only at a flying club and build the hours that way.

 

This route has been fairly well junked, ( useful though it was to many people ) when the CAA decided that all instructors had to hold a commercial licence or a BCPL ( basic CPL ) before working as an instructor. Add to this the airlines preferring to induct university grads and train them from Ab Initio in Florida, or somewheere else cheap. . . ( ! )

 

Phil.

 

 

[68volksy]

An alright way to build hours for free without a CPL is the good old jump plane pilot. Find a parachuting school with a decent reputation that's using some decent aircraft, hang around for long enough and you'll start building some good hours. Find a drop zone that uses constant speed props and 120-knot plus machines and the log book will start looking quite nice for a future employer.

 

Because low-hour CPL pilots are a dime a dozen nowadays there's a lot to be said for getting to know a potential future employer also. Even if it means sweeping the floors at the local maintenance shop. A local year 12 student here spent some time sweeping floors at a local charter company maintenance shop and got himself some nice right-seat time ferrying Conquests/Titans/Metros to and from the maintenance location. Not sure if it went in the logbook but it shows that the idea can work.