150 hour or 200 hour CPL - Which is better

[facthunter]

I've flown with ex WW2 pilots(heavies and spits/hurricanes etc), ex airforce Knuckleheads, ex Viet chopper pilots, civil trained (aeroclub( and airline cadets. After about five years there is no real difference in performance that can be related to their training, as a general statement). I've had jet only people in DH 82's and THAT is something, cause they find out there IS a rudder. I have second hand knowledge of the newer computer IT based guys. I'm a bit skeptical as to their real world relationship but Phil is right. They , ( the airlines), don't want anyone who is an individual these days. Just do what is in the book ( and if it is not there put your head between your legs and kiss your ar$e goodbye). I think all heavy drivers should be spin recovery competant, ( but that is just me). Nev

 

 

[poteroo]

Nev is right - procedure/process has become more important than skill and airmanship.

 

I don't think CASA is going the right way about upskilling instructors, by way of their approach to instructor testing, wherein it's more important to bore your student to death by a long winded 'long' brief, than teaching them to be able to fly in balance, recover from scary attitudes, and handle the real world of difficult wx and strips.

 

happy days,

 

 

[blueline]

For those considering VET fee help courses please consider the costs involved. VET fee help is not a free service - it just delays the repayment of a cost. And sometimes the providers of these courses inflate the cost -

 

for example charging $25,000 for a VET fee multi engine instrument rating course where as I charge $14,000. Same rating..

 

 

[ben87r]

I'm paying 100k for ppl to atpl hold with mecir, but there is a 20% fee for using the vet fee on top of it so it isn't the cheapest way of doing it by any means but, it's the only way I would have been able to do it and I'm more then impressed with the level of training provided and know if I was self studying for the theory I wouldn't have learnt half as much even if I had learnt enough to pass the test. But it wouldn't be for everyone and if I had the cash spare I would have payed upfront for it and saved 20k!

 

 

[Phil Perry]

An alright way to build hours for free without a CPL is the good old jump plane pilot. Find a parachuting school with a decent reputation that's using some decent aircraft, hang around for long enough and you'll start building some good hours. Find a drop zone that uses constant speed props and 120-knot plus machines and the log book will start looking quite nice for a future employer..

That sounds very reasonable Volksy, BUT . . . .

 

I tried that with several parachute clubs in the UK, who were using a variety of aricraft to chuck idiots out of. . . . . they all said that I hadn't got enough RECENT hours on twins. . . .to take me on. Bear in mind I have X hours on Dakotas and many other twin piston aircraft, some of their machines were tiny little Britten Norman Islanders, which,. . .OK,. . . I'd never flown the type but, most high wing twins fly in more or less the same manner, ie, no surprises, some had the Brazilian Bandeirante types, and some even used Antonov AN2s. . . . .( If you couldn't fly an AN2, then you should give up stick and rudder immediately,. . . . )I think that any Russian taken off the street could be taught to fly one of those in about three hours. . . . ( but that is only MY opinion. . .)

 

They said that if I came back with 25 hours on any twin aircraft in the last 6 months,. . . . then they would CONSIDER me for work. . . .! I had no real answer for that, obviously, a LOT of previous crime didn't impress them. There IS quite a bit of Glider Tugging work available, but that is something that I have never been taught. . . . ( note to self. . . do a glider tugging course. . . .) A twin rating in the UK is horrendously expensive. . . . . and Para Pilots DON'T get paid,. so it looks like waiting for the lottery numbers to keep up my hours. . . . .

 

Phil

 

 

[Phil Perry]

I've flown with ex WW2 pilots(heavies and spits/hurricanes etc), ex airforce Knuckleheads, ex Viet chopper pilots, civil trained (aeroclub( and airline cadets. After about five years there is no real difference in performance that can be related to their training, as a general statement). I've had jet only people in DH 82's and THAT is something, cause they find out there IS a rudder. I have second hand knowledge of the newer computer IT based guys. I'm a bit skeptical as to their real world relationship but Phil is right. They , ( the airlines), don't want anyone who is an individual these days. Just do what is in the book ( and if it is not there put your head between your legs and kiss your ar$e goodbye). I think all heavy drivers should be spin recovery competant, ( but that is just me). Nev

I agree entirely Nev ( And it isn't just becuase I like the cut of your jib . . . .! ) I taught a bloke to fly some 25 years ago, for free, in my spare time, as he was on low earnings at the time. He is now an Airbus 320 captain with a well known airline which I won't mention to preserve his identity ( Thomas Cook ! ) He found out after flying airliners that he appeared to be "Losing his touch" with light aeroplanes, so he worked at a small flying school and before long became CFI, he had a horrible malaise ( called acrophobia ) I hope I spelled that correctly. . . .which is a morbid fear of heights, ie, his missus had to rescue him one day from the third rung on a stepladder when he froze in fear whilst painting a wall at home. . . . . I have to say that this problem was never mentioned whilst I was teaching him every "Off Piste" dirty trick in the book that I had ever learned, in Piper Warriors and C-172s etc. . . .some of it well outside the manual,. . .( I know - I know, but sometimes with a brilliant student, you just DO ! ) Anyway, the poor guy got his CPL / IR in a very short time, and then couldn't find a job. He DID manage to get a job fairly quickly,. . . flying cargo aircraft on night operations from Prestwick to German airports, and to supplement his income, he got a job cleaning kitchens at a reataurant in Birmingham.

 

He must be the ONLY bloke I have ever known who cleaned kitchens out in the daytime, and "Moonlighted" as a commercial pilot ! ! ! So I suggested that he send a FAX ( most young people probably don't know what one of them is. . .) to every chief pilot of every airline he could think of. . . and KEEP ON sending them until he got a reply. ( Bear in mind that by this time he was 35 years of age. . . ) He did this, and finally, someone answered and said, " For Christ's sake, come and have an interview, and stop sending me bloody faxes. . . ." This was from the chief pilot at Monarch Airways, ( now defunct ) and he got a job as P2 on 737 aircraft. The rest is history. ( One of my BETTER students ! ! ! ) He says, that he is STILL terrified of heights. . . . . . .?

 

I've often asked if he can get me a right seat flight on an A320,. . . .but thus far, . . . .he can't . ( What a surprise ! ) Anyway, you aspiring airline pilots, just remember, keep emailing the chief pilot, ( He's probably never heard of a FAX. . . ) and you'll either get an interview, or get arrested for harrassment.

 

Phil

 

 

[Phil Perry]

I'm paying 100k for ppl to atpl hold with mecir, but there is a 20% fee for using the vet fee on top of it so it isn't the cheapest way of doing it by any means but, it's the only way I would have been able to do it and I'm more then impressed with the level of training provided and know if I was self studying for the theory I wouldn't have learnt half as much even if I had learnt enough to pass the test. But it wouldn't be for everyone and if I had the cash spare I would have payed upfront for it and saved 20k!

Ben. . . .Ben. . . .Do you REALLY want to be a bus driver ??? Why don't you consider a career in Cargo Flying ? My friend Martin Sanderson got a job flying 747s after doing a flight engineer course on 727s, just like I did many years ago. . . . he made captain in less than five years. You have to consider how many years it wil take you to get to captain on flying buses,. . . . probably over 25 years. . . .with all that seniority numbers crap. . . . If you want to fly something really Big,. . . . then Cargo is the sensible way to go mate. It isn't as attractive I know, but my mate Martin says that, quite often he get's stuck in places like Rio, by the pool for a week or so, with all the lovelies from Qantas and British Airways, he says it's a really crap job. ( ! )

 

Phil

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Ben. . . .Ben. . . .Do you REALLY want to be a bus driver ??? Why don't you consider a career in Cargo Flying ? My friend Martin Sanderson got a job flying 747s after doing a flight engineer course on 727s, just like I did many years ago. . . . he made captain in less than five years. You have to consider how many years it wil take you to get to captain on flying buses,. . . . probably over 25 years. . . .with all that seniority numbers crap. . . . If you want to fly something really Big,. . . . then Cargo is the sensible way to go mate. It isn't as attractive I know, but my mate Martin says that, quite often he get's stuck in places like Rio, by the pool for a week or so, with all the lovelies from Qantas and British Airways, he says it's a really crap job. ( ! )Phil

(*** Edited to add. . . .By the way. . . . if you're interested, he works for Atlas Air Cargo International ( but don't tell him I told you that. . . . ! )

 

 

[ben87r]

G'Day Phil,

 

Never mentioned driving buses and i couldn't agree more. Im going to try to keep to "real" flying as much as i can, I would like to do RFDS or one of the regional out of cairns in the long run. still got a while to work out where i want to go

 

 

[Zac Wheeler]

Try flighttrainingadelaide.com.au and check out their vet fee course. I'm doing it and its the best if both worlds in my opinion.

Hey ben87r,

 

If you read this, can you please tell me how to apply for these courses.

 

Cheers

 

Zac

 

 

[ben87r]

PM SENT.

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Cargo flying, mmmmm (said in Homeresque voice)!

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Cargo flying, mmmmm (said in Homeresque voice)!

Well. . . . at least it can build up yer Biceps Howard,. . . as cargo pilots are quite often required to supervise the loaders with jiggling of awkward bits of machinery thru a door which isn't big enough. . .then push and shove it until it's safely stropped in the right bit of the aeroplane for balance. . so you sometimes get to do some pulling and pushing. . . . ( on the lower class carriers to / from weird destinations anyway ! )

 

Phil

 

 

[ben87r]

I'm going to put this one to HH and Nev and the other guys that have been in the industry. Do you really think another 50 hrs will make much of a difference in the long run??

 

I know that I wouldn't have got nearly the level of theory if I had gone the self study route and would bet my last cent that at most schools it would be lucky to be 70% as good ( not saying that the instructing itself would be any better or worse just the things that go along side, and I have the resources here to just about do anything ( countless sims, library with any book/cd/DVD you could think of, planing rooms with computers/ copiers ect and have been supplied with an iPad with or runways as well as all maps, whizz wheels and the rest) and a huge amount of knowledge to be tapped at any time. At the end of the day, 50 hrs is what I would fly in the first month if I took a job as an instructor here at the end. And I think that allot has to be said about the fact it isFULL time, you don't do anything but live and breathe aviation for over a year!! There must be something that I'm missing out on be interesting to hear your thoughts

 

 

[solowflyer]

My two cents worth. 50hr in the big picture is nothing for someone with experience however that extra 50 hrs for someone with a freshly printed cpl license could be the difference of getting your first job or not. Having spent x amont on 150 hrs and being unemployed is more expensive than spending an extra hand full of cash on 50 hrs and being employable. The only way it makes sence doing the 150 hr course is if you intend on doing extra traing straight after your cpl and getting IR rating or instructors in which case you would be doing those extra 50 hrs anyway. In summary do the 200 if you don't want to do instructors or IR straight away and just want to get straight into flying charter do 150 if planning on doing extra ratings. As for VET FEE help the concept is ok but the flying schools offering the courses are ripping off the system. 24k for an IR rating is just proferteering and preying on those who don't know any better.

 

A golden rule in aviation NEVER pay a lump sum up front.

 

Don't stress too much about doing theory at flying schools in my experience I had better results self studying but you have to be focused and disiplined it is very easy to get distracted .

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

I'm going to put this one to HH and Nev and the other guys that have been in the industry. Do you really think another 50 hrs will make much of a difference in the long run??

It makes a difference because it will open up opportunities sooner. It also makes a difference in the long run because you get that command just a little bit earlier. I know you are not thinking about it now, but the sooner you get to that high dollar earning potential, then the better off you will be in retirement!

When I started out looking for work, I had quite a bit of multi experience (about 100 hours), gained from flying friends to Tasmania, etc.. This opened many doors for me and allowed me to get a low capacity RPT job with only about 700 hours! Turbines and multi crew command came fairly quickly afterwards.

 

In many cases it's networking and being in the right place at the right time, but anything you can do to enhance your chances is worthwhile.

 

 

[facthunter]

Sorry Ben I didn't pick up on this till now. I have the greatest respect for GOOD instructors. (There shouldn't be any other kind) The flying experiences you get are hard to explain unless you do it. You have to allow the plane to get into situations you would not do by yourself, or the pupil does not realise the problem. ( 50 hours here or there are not significant also.).

 

In multi crew stuff you will be training others whether officially or not as many in the right seat will not have a lot of experience.

 

A lot of recognised training goes on too so training experience helps you get a check or training position as well, later

 

I am trying to talk you into doing a lot of instructing at a good school if possible. This really does lift your own standard, as if you do it well it is full on. The turbines and multi's cost heaps. An endorsement on a basic piston twin, ( Duchess?) doesn't hurt, but practice your I/F on something cheaper. Nev

 

 

[Milz]

Out of interest how do you see the future for Commercial Pilots? demand, industry, growth etc? Is there a flood of new blood incoming but none out going or vice versa?

 

It seems no matter who you ask about the topic they all have a totally different opinion, it's a employers market these days then the next person says pilots have the abilty to pick and choose ?

 

opinions???

 

Cheers

 

 

[dazza 38]

There is always a massive shortage of commercial pilots. Just ask any Flying school who make their income from training commercial pilots.

 

 

[ben87r]

Sorry for the late reply's guys, kinda missed it

 

I was hoping to miss the instructor route Nev if i could and do charter, you wouldn't recommend this? Not sure if i would be the "right" type of personality for it (not all that patient and not a big fan of incompetency lol) and dont think ill have another 15k to send at the end.

 

HH I understand what you mean now, luckily with my MECIR and RAA hrs ill come out around the 220hr mark so hope that will put me ahead of the pack

 

Milz, although i wouldnt be the best person to comment I will make this. There are a hell of a lot of schools doing VETFEE now (At least 10 that i have been told of). This makes it allot more obtainable to do and i think we will see allot of newbies in about 12 months fighting it out, there will be 100+ just from my school alone so i think that you will need to be above average but i also don't think that this would be any different to any other time