Horizontal separation from controlled or restricted airspace?

[OzScot]

I agree with you there Nightmare- I had the question in my exam and that's one of the reasons I wanted to follow this up further. Seems like they should revise the test yearly just to ensure that it's up to date.

 

 

[dutchroll]

All students have the right to expect the examination questions and answers to accurately reflect current rules and legislation.

 

Failure due to out of date questions/answers would be grounds for serious grievance in my opinion.

 

 

[Nightmare]

All students have the right to expect the examination questions and answers to accurately reflect current rules and legislation.Failure due to out of date questions/answers would be grounds for serious grievance in my opinion.

I agree, but is it a CFI issue or a RAAus issue. Maybe RAAus needs to conduct audits of the exams for currency in all RAAus schools.There was another question in my Air Legislation exam, I had no idea about. The question was: "What separation should there be between aircraft in the air?" In my "Aviation Theory Basic Aeronautical Knowledge including Human Factors" book by David Robson(Dec 2014), part of the Student pilot Kit, on page 153: "Operating near other Aircraft", it states, "Although the regulations do not specify minimum distances between aircraft in flight, minimum distances of 600m horizontally and 500ft vertically would be reasonable." The correct answer in my test was 100ft!!! I once had an aircraft fly 500ft below me, and I felt that was way too close, let alone 100ft!

 

If those questions were not in the test, I would not have failed on that 1st test. I protested to my CFI at the time, telling him that no where in my study material or on-line legislation did I see this information. After a week of trawling through my study material and on-line legislation and still not finding it, I asked him to show me where this info was. He showed me an out of date AIP ENR. I did my re-sit after this conversation and passed using the out-of-date information.

 

I think that the Horizontal Separation from Controlled and Restricted Airspace old regs that I belatedly learned from my CFI are best practice, comply with them and you should not get into trouble crossing into controlled or restricted airspace, but this is an exam on Air Legislation, not Air Best Practice and it is pretty poor that RAA can't marry up the written exams with the current regulations. I'm not blaming my CFI as I think that ultimately RAAus is responsible for ensuring proper training standards are met, maintained, and supervised.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

The question about proximity in the air relates to aircraft flying together. It's not about the distance you can pass by another random aircraft. When flying together you cannot fly closer than 100 ft unless you have a formation endorsement. The question could be worded to make it clearer.

 

 

[Nightmare]

The question about proximity in the air relates to aircraft flying together. It's not about the distance you can pass by another random aircraft. When flying together you cannot fly closer than 100 ft unless you have a formation endorsement. The question could be worded to make it clearer.

I can't remember the exact wording of the question, but it definitely did not mention formation flying.... and besides, the only reference in my study material seemed to totally contradict it, saying that minimum distances of aircraft in flight are not set out in the regulations.

[Nightmare]

All students have the right to expect the examination questions and answers to accurately reflect current rules and legislation.Failure due to out of date questions/answers would be grounds for serious grievance in my opinion.

I just contacted RAA and sent them an email, making them aware of this.

[Happyflyer]

T

 

I can't remember the exact wording of the question, but it definitely did not mention formation flying.... and besides, the only reference in my study material seemed to totally contradict it, saying that minimum distances of aircraft in flight are not set out in the regulations.

The question when I was given it something like, how close can two pilot fly to each other if they don't have formation endorsements. The RAAus Ops Manual (which we all have to know and fly by) definition of Formation flying is:

Formation Flight; Two or more aeroplanes flown in close proximity (closer than 100FT) which operate as a single aeroplane with regard to navigation, position reporting and control.

 

So the answer is 100ft (unless you both hold formation endorsements). It may not be in the regulations but we are all supposed to operate in accordance with the Ops Manual.

 

 

[Nightmare]

TThe question when I was given it something like, how close can two pilot fly to each other if they don't have formation endorsements. The RAAus Ops manual definition of Formation flying is:

 

Formation Flight; Two or more aeroplanes flown in close proximity (closer than 100FT) which operate as a single aeroplane with regard to navigation, position reporting and control.

 

So the answer is 100ft (unless you both hold formation endorsements).

Well, I passed it the 2nd time around. It is an educational experience...

[Geoff13]

Well, I passed it the 2nd time around. It is an educational experience...

And that is a problem in itself. An examination should be testing your knowledge, not teaching you to pass the next attempt.

 

With some experience in writing and utilising multichoice examinations over the years, I found that not one of the RA Aus examinations that I sat fairly tested my understanding of the subject.

 

They did however test my ability to answer multichoice questions which is not the same thing. They were poorly written and in some cases there were without doubt more than one correct answer, and worse still in some cases there were actually no correct answers.

 

At the time I was fairly new to aviation (as I still am) and didn't want to make waves. As we now have a safety officer, I may when I have some time to spare write and highlight some of my concerns.

 

 

[Nightmare]

And that is a problem in itself. An examination should be testing your knowledge, not teaching you to pass the next attempt.With some experience in writing and utilising multichoice examinations over the years, I found that not one of the RA Aus examinations that I sat fairly tested my understanding of the subject.

They did however test my ability to answer multichoice questions which is not the same thing. They were poorly written and in some cases there were without doubt more than one correct answer, and worse still in some cases there were actually no correct answers.

 

At the time I was fairly new to aviation (as I still am) and didn't want to make waves. As we now have a safety officer, I may when I have some time to spare write and highlight some of my concerns.

I actually did that, and I got a reply from the National Operations Manager. The essence of the answer was "the 871 staff at CASA can produce more rule changes than the 15 staff at RAAus can keep up with sometimes" She painted a picture of an organization a bit snowed under.

[dutchroll]

I actually did that, and I got a reply from the National Operations Manager. The essence of the answer was "the 871 staff at CASA can produce more rule changes than the 15 staff at RAAus can keep up with sometimes" She painted a picture of an organization a bit snowed under.

Well that's all well & good but at the very least, upon receiving notification of an incorrect or dubious examination question/answer, they should immediately review both the exam questions, and the marking of any exam failures where the "wrong" answer was given to ensure it has made no difference to the end result.

I wonder how often examinations which are susceptible to change (like air legislation or other rule/procedure knowledge based exams) are reviewed at RAAus?

 

 

[facthunter]

It's an area overdue for review. Luck shouldn't be involved. Often people who are very knowledgeable, in a particular subject will have much more difficulty, than someone who has studied only the reference material. If you can't respect the efficacy of an exam, it's hard to take the subject seriously. Learning with understanding is far better by a mile than ROTE. Nev

 

 

[Nightmare]

I'm guessing that most regulations would be changed for safety reasons, so to me it seems quite dangerous not to be kept up to date, from the student level in in the exams, right through to current pilots being informed. Then everyone is on the same page. Worst case scenario I can see is someone flying to a superseded rule and another not which puts them on a collision course. Surely in the age of computers, internet and automation, rule changes in one department could be easily converted over and applied in another similar department with minimum of fuss.

 

 

[Yenn]

Over the years that I have been flying there have been numerous rule changes, but apart from those which are caused by new technology, there have been minimal changes of the rules.

 

If that doesn't make sense to you, what I am saying is we get change for the sake of change, not for betterment.

 

 

[mnewbery]

Rob Avery AV31 cyber practice exam 2015 version.

 

PPL practice exam 2 question 41. Still in there as 1, 2 or 4nm etc.

 

Wonder what the real CASA cyber exam will have in it...

 

 

[Kununurra]

All students have the right to expect the examination questions and answers to accurately reflect current rules and legislation.Failure due to out of date questions/answers would be grounds for serious grievance in my opinion.

I agree however it would usually take more than 1 question to fail an exam? It may identify that there needs to be a little more work done before attempting the next sit and you should get feedback on the questions you got wrong so that should not happen again

Cheers

 

 

[KRviator]

Agreed, however, the pass mark is what it is, and should you fall below that standard due to one incorrect question, that is not your fault. But for that question you would have passed and met the standard.

 

It also begs the question, are there any other questions that have not been updated to reflect changes in the AIP?

 

 

[DrZoos]

I have found with the smaller Towers, the easiest way is tell them who you are and your intentions as you approach... that way they instantly call you if your about to encroach... I use this method past Coffs regularly as often the cloud and mountains provide some very tight areas to fly through and the best option is generally right on the very edge of the CTA. Clearly some towers are to busy with the big guys, but others very much appreciate the heads up.

 

 

[Nightmare]

Agreed, however, the pass mark is what it is, and should you fall below that standard due to one incorrect question, that is not your fault. But for that question you would have passed and met the standard.It also begs the question, are there any other questions that have not been updated to reflect changes in the AIP?

When I emailed RAA, about this matter, they basically said that they have recognize that there is a problem in this area and that all the exams are currently being reviewed. But they also said that the approximately 500 CASA employees can generate more legislation changes than the 14 RAA employees can keep up with.

[djpacro]

... But they also said that the approximately 500 CASA employees can generate more legislation changes than the 14 RAA employees can keep up with.

Individuals can't use that excuse so we must not accept it from the RAA, nor from CASA who are also way behind with their regulatory guidance information (eg out of date CAAPs).

[facthunter]

About time for a performance audit of the CASA? Nev

 

 

[facthunter]

I dare them to take a survey of people in the industry, that didn't identify the people surveyed individually. People I know are just getting out, because they can't stand the BS anymore..Nev

 

 

[djpacro]

They did last year.

 

"Last days to have your say on CASA’s performance

 

The important new survey being conducted to benchmark the aviation community’s views about CASA closes on 18 December 2015. The online survey takes about 15 minutes to complete and covers CASA’s key performance areas. Views are sought on CASA’s performance in specific areas such as efficiency, responsiveness, accountability and timeliness. Questions cover how easy it is to comply with regulations, the development of new regulations, consistency of decision making and satisfaction with service delivery. Overall, the survey aims to determine the strengths and weaknesses of CASA’s relationship with the aviation community. Results will be used by CASA’s Board and management to improve CASA’s performance, build stronger working connections with the aviation community and lift service delivery. The survey is being conducted online by an independent market research organisation, all responses are held securely and participants can choose to be anonymous. This survey will be run every two years so CASA can measure changes in performance and interaction with the aviation community. The survey meets recommendation eight of the Aviation Safety Regulation Review.

 

Make sure your views are heard and complete the survey now."

 

 

[facthunter]

They didn't ask the right questions. Nev

 

After your listing of the wording, I have to agree there was an opportunity. I neglected to take aboard the anonymous possibility. How many responses did they get? (roughly) Nev

 

 

[Nightmare]

They didn't ask the right questions. Nev

They do this with some of the exams as well