Cheap is not Necessarily Economic

[old man emu]

Earlier this week we pulled an altimeter out of an airplane and sent it to an instrument maker so the altimeter could have its two-yearly check (called an Instrument 8/9 Inspection). Nothing unusual about that, and the altimeter was working OK before we pulled it.

 

Today I got into work and there was the altimeter with an "Unserviceable" label attached to it. The reason for the unserviceability - the altimeter was made in China and the instrument guy could not get the data he required to service and calibrate it.

 

In a rare idle moment, I thought I'd check out the organisation whose name was on the instrument. The address given was Witchita, Kansas. I thought that could be OK as the company could design the instrument in the USA, then manufacture it in China.

 

When I Googled the company name, the only results thrown up were telephone and business directory entries. I started to get suspicious. A few more enquiries resulted in my turning up a web page for the company. From it I got the impression that the company was merely a distributor.

 

Then I checked the address on Google Maps. I found a building at the address given for the company, but it wasn't very big - one storey. Alarm bells started to ring in my brain. I reckon that the company buys in unbranded altimeters from China; sticks a label on them giving the company name and address, then distributes them with the implication that although made in China, the altimeters are full of good ol' yankee knowhow.

 

What's the effect of this on our customer, who is up for another altimeter? Well, he's down the value of the Chinese altimeter, and has to fork out for another one. We'll probably source him an truely US made altimeter, used, but with a certificate to say it had passed its Inst 8/9 inspection.

 

The moral of the story is that buying a new Chinese made altimeter and a low price, might not be as economical as chasing a used US made one with a "Serviceable" certificate which might be a hundred or two dollars dearer to buy.

 

Old Man Emu

 

 

[cscotthendry]

Fred: "Hey Joe, how come you always buy the cheapest tyres?"

 

Joe: "How else could I afford to replace them every three months?"

 

The definition of False Economy.

 

 

[facthunter]

You tend to get what you pay for. When something doesn't have a "brand" name on it ( that is genuine) you should be wary. A company that is proud of it's products looks after its reputation, ( or at least has an interest in doing that) Some of the stuff is for landfill and we will run out of suitable holes in the ground soon. Nev

 

 

[Guest steve-nz]

Hmm, Apple v PC comes to mind here too...

 

 

[cscotthendry]

... A company that is proud of it's products looks after its reputation... Nev

That's true up to a point. I've lost count of how many "quality" brands that have been exploited by unscrupulous management by cost cutting to the point where a quality product becomes rubbish. It takes a while for the consumers to catch on and stop buying the "new improved" product, but in the mean time the management can leverage the good name for all the profitability they can wring out of it. Then the brand becomes the next "junk" brand. A brand that comes readily to mind is TEAC.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

or Sharp.

 

 

[Guernsey]

Sold electronic equipment for many years but although the retailer I worked for sold Teac, I would never recommend them. A lot of people confused them with Technics which is the up market Panasonics (same company) which are very good products. Sharp had some problems but some of their products were also very good.

 

Alan.

 

 

[old man emu]

I think the problem could be easily overcome by having someone who knows instruments, and who can speak and write English, sit down and write a service manual for them. It is the lack of service data that makes the irreparable. There also needs to be a supply of replacement parts.

 

If Chinese manufacturers took these few more steps, they would get a larger portion of the market, as I believe the instruments function reasonably when new. And I don't think it is the Chinese who are the sole producers of Engrish. I was recently reading some instructions written by a German company, and there was a bit if Engrish in them.

 

OME

 

 

[Virago]

OME, are we talking about "Falcon" instruments here or are there other more dodgy brands around?

 

 

[Methusala]

This reminds me of a debate raging at the moment regarding broadband. You certainly get a much inferior result by trying to save a few bucks. Don

 

 

[old man emu]

OME, are we talking about "Falcon" instruments here or are there other more dodgy brands around?

No. The instrument we have does not carry that brand name. I carries another, so the answer your second question, "Yes."

OME

 

 

[bexrbetter]

If Chinese manufacturers blah blah blah

Ironically I just had a tour of Dongfang 2 hours ago then came home and read this, Dongfang ("East Wind") one of the leading and most respected turbine manufacturers in the world, the word impressive doesn't even come close.

 

Turbine blades from 2 meters tall to one that I held and fits in my palm, they are literally works of art to behold

 

http://www.dongfang.com.cn/index.php/business?subCategory=FossilFuelPower

 

 

[damkia]

I was recently reading some instructions written by a German company, and there was a bit if Engrish in them.OME

That would be "Einglisch"

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Ironically I just had a tour of Dongfang 2 hours ago then came home and read this, Dongfang ("East Wind") one of the leading and most respected turbine manufacturers in the world, the word impressive doesn't even come close.Turbine blades from 2 meters tall to one that I held and fits in my palm, they are literally works of art to behold

 

http://www.dongfang.com.cn/index.php/business?subCategory=FossilFuelPower

Bexrbetter

 

I don't care where the instrument comes from as long as it is TSO'd, has good English maintenance instructions and can be calibrated by a qualified instrument fitter which of course infers that spare parts are available. The Chinese Altimeters in Australia that are available today fail all 3 of those requirements but are very cheap in terms of initial cost. In terms of a 10 year total cost of ownership equation, my experience is these will be very expensive and leave a sour taste in your mouth..

 

Its been my experience across 3 Chinese altimeters in 2 different aircraft that the quality is so poor that the QNH setting knob (kollsman scale) will generally fail within a few years and then nobody can (or is prepared) to fix them.

 

I personally agree with OME and would not spend one more cent on a Chinese altimeter until these issues are fixed.....I suspect its the same as the Japanese car industry initially was. When flying around controlled airspace just under the wedding cake tiers the last thing you need is that altimeter failing, GPS altitude or Mode C alt (if you can display that) definitely does not cut it!!

 

In fact I'll go one step further and say I personally wont buy a mechanical altimeter again. Electronic Altimeters are readily available, and they generally include not only an altimeter but a VSI in the same instrument and also a mode C altimeter encoder which means with one instrument you can turf out 2 dinosaur gauges and a usual big old AmeriKing encoder mounted somewhere behind the dash on our aircraft segment. Would be surprised if you couldn't save at least 2-3Kg's

 

Andy

 

 

[bexrbetter]

The Chinese Altimeters fail all 3 of those requirements but are very cheap in terms of initial cost.

Wow, what a surprise.

 

I personally agree with OME and would not spend one more cent on a Chinese altimeter until these issues are fixed..

Good for you but here's a question, did you or the person related actually spend more than one cent in the first place? I just can't get over people spending nothing and expecting everything and then whining in everybodies ear when they actually discover they got what they paid for. Stop buying cheap crap where ever it comes from.

 

If I was the Chinese Government I would ban the export of the crap, they have created a paradox for themselves by allowing it to go on for so long, ie; how do they sell a genuine quality product now with any trust? Recently the Government looked at 155 Chinese products that were complained about in American Consumer Affairs and proved that the Chinese companies had made the product to the exact specification demanded by the relevant American companies in 132 of the cases.

 

Would be surprised if you couldn't save at least 2-3Kg'sAndy

Avoid McDonalds and take your jumper off.

 

 

[Camel]

In fact I'll go one step further and say I personally wont buy a mechanical altimeter again. Electronic Altimeters are readily available, and they generally include not only an altimeter but a VSI in the same instrument and also a mode C altimeter encoder which means with one instrument you can turf out 2 dinosaur gauges and a usual big old AmeriKing encoder mounted somewhere behind the dash on our aircraft segment. Would be surprised if you couldn't save at least 2-3Kg's.

Hi Andy, what instrument do you speak of as I am wanting such an instrument ? I was going to buy a Dynon D6 and next year will need a mode S transponder and was undecided at this stage. I was keen on the D6 for the AH, ALT, VSI and compass which is doubling up on a few things ,

 

 

[damkia]

In all fairness these West-East arguments don't achieve much.

 

You only have to look at the quality (for want of a better description) of some US made cars (GM, Ford Chrysler, Jeep) and compare them to some South Korean or Japanese built cars to understand that the exact same thing applies when building to a price. Ditto for a lot of European brands too...

 

Chinese make good electronics, including the iPad that most people will no doubt be comfortable taking on board as an EFB. I would suggest it will be the US built accessories (GPS etc) that will fail rather than the iPad.

 

One thing that is apparent is the more Asian countries come into the "Western" world of trade, the quicker they tend to learn what is expected. China is the latest and is by far the quickest learner yet.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Hi Andy, what instrument do you speak of as I am wanting such an instrument ? I was going to buy a Dynon D6 and next year will need a mode S transponder and was undecided at this stage. I was keen on the D6 for the AH, ALT, VSI and compass which is doubling up on a few things ,

http://www.lightflying.com.au/Stratomaster Pages/Maxi Singles.htm look for ALT-3 (No mode C encoder) or ALT-4 (with Mode C encoder)

 

circa $350 to $400 and if you include airspeed (so pitot and pitot static line connections) about the same price delivered (ASX-2)

 

I have nothing to do with Lightflying but have used their gear and its basic but works....basic in this case doesn't have any negative connotations, it just means using the instruments is pretty simple usually only 1 or 2 buttons for the less complex instruments....

 

Andy

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Good for you but here's a question, did you or the person related actually spend more than one cent in the first place? I just can't get over people spending nothing and expecting everything and then whining in everybody's ear when they actually discover they got what they paid for. Stop buying cheap crap where ever it comes from..

Both Aircraft were 2nd hand and came fitted with a cheap altimeter that happened to be made in China. When the first failed on my J230 I purchased a replacement from Jabiru and then swapped out new for old.....I pulled the old one apart and was unimpressed to say the least, when the 2nd failed on my trike, it was replaced with a non Chinese altimeter and ditto for the 2nd replacement in the J230. So me, I was fooled once alone....... My whining in everybody's ear is so that pressure is brought to bear...The more whiners there are the less people will be caught and the greater the pressure for change for the better...... I whine because as a qualified aircraft tradesman It sucks that something that is fundamentally important can be manufactured in a backyard barn somewhere from recycled coke cans and chook manure!! and be represented as merely a cheaper alternate!!!! A ford is a cheaper alternate to a BMW yet I reasonably expect that both will get me to my destination......not so with the cheap altimeters sold in Australia and made in China.... You infer that the cost of such an item is negligible which is wrong, I don't recall seeing them for under 1/3 of a TSO'd instrument, yet a car is readily available for 1/3rd the cost of a BMW!

 

Your comment regarding 2-3Kg........Really....does that justify a comment.......How many people who start to build an aircraft think F&ckit, I wont worry about controlling weight, I'll just build how ever I like and know that if I don't go to Macca's I'll be all right!!!

 

You forget that people who don't know better read these forums and may take your comments which I'm sure were tounge in cheek as written...

 

When it comes to cheap altimeters sold in Australia that were made in China (which I disparagingly called cheap Chinese altimeters!!!) I care not what you write because they are Sh!t and if the equivalent quality was put into a watch for example then the importer would be made to recall them under our consumer laws as not being fit for purpose!!

 

Andy

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I don't recall seeing them for under 1/3 of a TSO'd instrument, yet a car is readily available for 1/3rd the cost of a BMW!

A "1/5 the price of a BMW" Chinese made Great Wall car gets around just fine so that argument didn't work.

 

I care not what you write because they are Sh!t

Ummm, what? I have said many, many times "cheap crap", ie Sh!t.

 

Anyway, what idiot would buy a cheap instrument of such importance? Why aren't you directly attacking them? Mine aren't coming from Asia, an area with little aviation history and experience that's for sure, there's some things you just don't gamble with, do I look like a moron?

 

In all fairness these West-East arguments don't achieve much.

The daily sales of "cheap East crap" qualifies that statement well - what baffles me is that sales are going up not down.

 

Try this, just for the experience, hit yourself on the fingers with a hammer and see if it hurts, now consider if you want to do it again?

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I drove a US made Ford Focus in Nebraska in 2011, 1.6L with a 4 speed auto. The ones coming out of Thailand are so much nicer to drive. The Dodge Minivan I drove in SLC took me back to the 90s commodore I drove once upon a time.

 

The yanks are hopeless manufacturers.

 

 

[old man emu]

Whoa! I didn't want to start a Sino-Australian trade war. There was one point that most have missed in my opening remarks. The altimeter in question was labelled with a US company's name and address. It was also clearly marked as having been made in China. I think that the deception here (if there is one) is that the US company was implying that the altimeter was designed with US know-how, and that is what its reputation should rest upon. I think that it is becoming clear that the Chinese manufacturer is making the altimeter and then allowing distributors to brand the product themselves. No hit, no foul, as the Yanks would say. The problem is that the Chinese manufacturer doesn't identify a model number, nor does it provide the necessary technical data and parts back-up to keep the altimeter serviceable. If the manufacturer could do these three things, then their low priced product does become economically viable to the purchaser. Perhaps bexrbetter could do us all an service by explaining to Chinese manufacturers that sometimes planned obsolescence does not breed customer loyalty. OME

 

 

[boingk]

Berx, take it easy mate. We know you're geared up in China and that's fine, the Chinese are just like everyone else - they can and do make good things... for a price. If you want to go cheap then we all know what you get... anywhere... and that's cee arr aye pee. All OME is saying is that by trying to save money on an instrument without proper service instructions or factory aftermarket support, a customer has ended up having to buy a whole new instrument. - boingk

 

 

[old man emu]

Okay! Okay! Let's stop the China bashing and get back to the topic. Crickey! All I wanted to do was to warn people that buying cheap instruments may be a false economy. I'm sure that the Chinese can make good quality instruments. Has anyone pulled and altimeter from a Nanchang and had it serviced? I'm sure that you would find that an instrument in a military plane was top quality. OME

 

 

[jakej]

Okay! Okay! Let's stop the China bashing and get back to the topic. Crickey! All I wanted to do was to warn people that buying cheap instruments may be a false economy. I'm sure that the Chinese can make good quality instruments. Has anyone pulled and altimeter from a Nanchang and had it serviced? I'm sure that you would find that an instrument in a military plane was top quality. OME

OME

 

We're talking RAA & experimental here -the Altimeter topic was bought up ages ago, no one seems to care as long as they're cheap many will continue to buy them & whinge when they prematurely fail