Aviation R/T procedures for dummies ?

[Phil Perry]

Hi All. . .

 

Following on from reading posts in the thread "Aircraft Collision" I mentioned starting a fresh thread to assist in educating newer pilots ( and maybe some older ones as well. . . .? ) in radio communication procedures and etiket ( apologies to Nino Culotta ). Now, plenty of fat bottomed girls have ridden past my window on bikes since I last sat in a flying appliance in Australia, but it appears that something has gone wrong with radio procedures amongst the up and coming pilots in RAAus, and possibly newer G.A. pilotage too, NOT MY WORDS by the way,. . . . I've seen quite a few posts over the last few months bemoaning this subject SO what's gone wrong ????

 

I'm going to list some radio mnemonics used in the radio training of pilots flying Microlight and G.A. aircraft here in the freezing UK. I'd like you blokes ( and of course, some of the Blokettes too ) to let me know how YOUR current radio training works, in the procedural sense of course, so that Mark, and / or other radio specialists do not have to pull us up on the tecchie stuff, thereby causing some confuddlement and thread drift between tech and Proc.

 

Here's one, which is taught to remember the sequence for a request of some sort,. . .ie to cross a MATZ or enter / transit civilian controlled airspace.

 

I.P.H.A.C.E.R. I-Ident. ( your callsign) P- Position, H- Heading, A- Altitude, C-conditions ( VMC ?) E-Estimate for Matz zone / Airspace boundary, R-Request, ( what do you want ? Zone transit ? Landing at our airfield ? ) Call to be made 15 Nm or minimum Five minutes before boundaries reached. ( If you DO WANT A LANDING and have not bothered, by this time, to have already checked any A.T.I.S. broadcasts, then you are a Wally, and it will not go down well. . .) The "C" part has recently been deleted, as most pilots have to be operating under VFR anyway, so it's a little redundant. ! IFR procedures differ, and we won't go into that here. This is the order in which a controller EXPECTS your call to be made, which makes his / her job a lot easier.

 

I.P.T.L.E. This is the "Short Position Report" mnemonic,. . .I-Ident, P-Position, T - Time ( Now ) L-Level ( or Altitude ) E - Estimate at next reporting point. More later, when I've heard some of YOURS ! !

 

 

[Bryon]

Who, where, what

 

Who you are

 

Where you are

 

What your intentions are

 

...............

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Who, where, whatWho you are

Where you are

 

What your intentions are

 

...............

Nice simple one Bryon. . . .

 

But is this the national / expected by ATC - standard setup for radio calls in Australia, ? . . . . . .and if so, is it really useful to other aviators in a similar area ? . . . what I mean is, if I heard a call like that, ie, Goldtown, - 25-1234, . . Boxfat 123, . .one fife Nm North of the field. . ., level at 2,000 feet on one zero two fife, Inbound to you,. . . request airfield information . . . . I would know that this guy was either nowhere near me OR, if he was at a similar altitude and position as me, I'd start looking around like a craphouse rat to make sure that either HE didn't run up my jacksie, OR I didn't run up his. . . .. . . . .

 

Phil

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Has this question got everyone perplexed ?? Or is it the weekend syndrome,. . . . . . .I hope not. . . . . . not because I might think that because I've been doing it for years, and was involved in ATC, I think I am the bestest at radio comms. . . . far from it. . . . I just wanted to know what you ( my friends ) thought about what's happening on the aeronautical communications front at the moment. . . .and why so many of you seem to be annoyed about it. . . . . . . ?

 

Phil

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Other than ground calls, the only calls required in VFR outside controlled airspace are the ten mile inbound, joining circuit, turning base and turning final. No departure call. We are strongly discouraged from cluttering the airwaves with any other calls, though of course there times when they are needed and that is left to the judgement of the pilot. Now a hundred people will tell me I'm wrong.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Other than ground calls, the only calls required in VFR outside controlled airspace are the ten mile inbound, joining circuit, turning base and turning final. No departure call. We are strongly discouraged from cluttering the airwaves with any other calls, though of course there times when they are needed and that is left to the judgement of the pilot. Now a hundred people will tell me I'm wrong.

PM. . . . Thank you for your response, but I can't agree that no departure call is a good thing, . . . in the UK we always call. . ."Departing to the South East, 2000 feet on one zero one fife". . . .or whichever direction, so that anyone approaching the airfield has , at least, some idea that an aircraft has just left the site you are approaching, . . . don't forget that an aircraft approaching YOU is very difficult to see, especially if he is on a reciprocal heading. . . . this is why the "Minimalist" radio call idea is no more than a load of CRAP. The more you KNOW about what is going on around you, . . . .then the better this is for the general safety of everyone else.. . . . .I can't understand where these bloody stupid ideas come from. . . .you've got a radio,. . .so BLOODY WELL USE IT. You might just find that. . . one day,. .it could well save you from inadvertantly occupying the same piece of sky as some other poor bloke, who didn't know you were there, because you never broadcast the fact. . . . Ain't rocket science really. . . .

 

No offence intended. . . . . I'll leave any other comments about this to the other 99 people you mentioned in your post. . .

 

Phil

 

 

[old man emu]

. This is the order in which a controller EXPECTS your call to be made, which makes his / her job a lot easier.

Phil,

 

You've hit the nail on the head with this comment. Except for a relative handful of airports in our Capital cities, and a few larger regional cities, the majority of our flying is in uncontrolled airspace,so we don't have as many controllers as your country does - and we have low aircraft densities throughout the rest of our airspace.

 

It is a long time since we could go "Full Reporting" on a VFR flight (though I always enjoyed the challenge to be "on track-on time"). I fully agree that a Short Position Report is a good call to make within the vicinity of an airfield, even if you are just overflying it.

 

OME

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Other than ground calls, the only calls required in VFR outside controlled airspace are the ten mile inbound, joining circuit, turning base and turning final. No departure call. We are strongly discouraged from cluttering the airwaves with any other calls, though of course there times when they are needed and that is left to the judgement of the pilot. Now a hundred people will tell me I'm wrong.

Ok I'll be the first ;-)

 

Inbound and joining circuit calls are recommended rather than required.

 

Turning base and and turning final are neither required nor recommended

 

Calls (in the judgement of the pilot) to avoid collision or risk of collision are mandatory

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[ben87r]

Other than ground calls, the only calls required in VFR outside controlled airspace are the ten mile inbound, joining circuit, turning base and turning final. No departure call. We are strongly discouraged from cluttering the airwaves with any other calls, though of course there times when they are needed and that is left to the judgement of the pilot. Now a hundred people will tell me I'm wrong.

Ok I'll be the first ;-)

Inbound and joining circuit calls are recommended rather than required.

 

Turning base and and turning final are neither required nor recommended

 

Calls (in the judgement of the pilot) to avoid collision or risk of collision are mandatory

 

Cheers

 

John

Inbound broadcast is Required at CTAF aerodromes

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Inbound broadcast is Required at CTAF aerodromes

Not according to http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/pilots/download/vfr/vfrg-whole-low.pdf (see page 235-236 and following notes)

 

Do you have some evidence to support your opinion ?

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Yenn]

You still have to call when overflying other airports, Same format Who, where and intentions.

 

 

[Bryon]

Phil, it is not the national standard

 

It is my way of letting people know who I am, where I am and my intentuions

 

The reason it is so simple is so that I can remember it........

 

PS Mods, we need an old man scratching his head smilie

 

 

[ausadvance]

my opinion on it is, judge the field or the situation accordingly, keep your eyes out and report what you think is required/or useful to other pilots without clattering the radio waves. at lismore I fly a drifter with a cruise of 60 knots, and regularly share a circuit pattern with a saab 340, in which case I make a breif call at every leg as he is going alot wider than me and substantially faster, meaning there is a large chance of us crossing paths and limited visability. if I don't here anyone on the radio, I make a simple down wind call so im not clattering the radio incase someone is joining and needs to get the word out. I think we often take set procedures to seriously and fly the book not the situation.

 

 

[coljones]

FYI procedures for non-towered dromes, including radio calls, some of which are required (if a radio is required).

 

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/pilots/download/nta_booklet.pdf

 

Which says

 

For minimum compliance, you should broadcast your intentions:

 

- before or during taxiing

 

- immediately before entering a runway, whether

 

active or not

 

- inbound 10nm or earlier from the aerodrome

 

- immediately before joining the circuit

 

- on a straight-in approach, on final, by 3nm from

 

the threshold

 

- on a base-join approach, before joining on base

 

- when fl ying near, but not intending to land at, a

 

non-towered aerodrome, where the pilot intends to

 

fly through the vicinity but not land.

 

*But use your radio more often if needed.

 

Calls at towered dromes are different as they are controlled airspace unless the tower is closed down see notams or ERSA

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Phil,

You've hit the nail on the head with this comment. Except for a relative handful of airports in our Capital cities, and a few larger regional cities, the majority of our flying is in uncontrolled airspace,so we don't have as many controllers as your country does - and we have low aircraft densities throughout the rest of our airspace.

 

It is a long time since we could go "Full Reporting" on a VFR flight (though I always enjoyed the challenge to be "on track-on time"). I fully agree that a Short Position Report is a good call to make within the vicinity of an airfield, even if you are just overflying it.

 

OME

 

 

my opinion on it is, judge the field or the situation accordingly, keep your eyes out and report what you think is required/or useful to other pilots without clattering the radio waves. at lismore I fly a drifter with a cruise of 60 knots, and regularly share a circuit pattern with a saab 340, in which case I make a breif call at every leg as he is going alot wider than me and substantially faster, meaning there is a large chance of us crossing paths and limited visability. if I don't here anyone on the radio, I make a simple down wind call so im not clattering the radio incase someone is joining and needs to get the word out. I think we often take set procedures to seriously and fly the book not the situation.

OK Guys, I can see that there are quite a few differences between airfield procedures here and in Aust. , The procedures I mentioned in the thread starter post are taught because there are quite a lot of airfields in the UK which have ATC, and / or Flight Service operators on duty. These guys N gals like to hear calls in a prescribed and nicely structured group, this is understandable, and it makes for fewer misunderstandings. The procedures are identical for Military AND civil zone transits, or approaches so it doesn't take long for a new pilot to get into the swing of it, unless he's a hermit and avoids the larger airfields and controlled airspace like the plague. Smaller airfields with an Air Ground radio service only, also like the radio calls made in the same structured, tidy manner. So it's not really a matter of cluttering the band with useless information, but quite handy, especially if things are busy, everyone knows where the others are, most of these are specific channels, so there isn't any spurious chatter, you're only going to get that on a Multi / Uni communcation frequency.

 

For the more well - off amongst us, who can afford a nice Mode S transponder, then the radio call is not as important, because the big airfield will know not only who you are, where you are, how high you are, how slow you are going, what colour your plane is. . . And all the nice airline captains will see you flashing lights and sounding bells on their TCAS as well. I've already blundered into rabbiting on about our newish "SAFETYCOM" idea on the Aircraft Collision thread by mistake. . These rules allow pilots to communicate amongst themselves, and use the same frequency ( 135.475 ) at any small club field or private strip where there might be other aircraft in the vicinity by prefixing the word Safetycom with their airfield name. But no ground station is allowed.

 

A few differences, and some similarities. . . Phil

 

 

[Phil Perry]

FYI procedures for non-towered dromes, including radio calls, some of which are required (if a radio is required).http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/pilots/download/nta_booklet.pdf

 

Thanks Col. . . . downloaded that.

 

Phil

[Phil Perry]

Who, where, whatWho you are

Where you are

 

What your intentions are

 

...............

Hi Bryon, I wish they'd adopt a simpler system here as well. . . .! After all, that about says it really, but in our busy airspace, they'd panic a bit if you didn't tell them what Height / Altitude / Level you were cruising at, and most of our students would be confuddled with a simple mnemonic like WWW !!!!!! A lot of newer pilots get confused between Heights. ( AGL, AAL, etc. . .) and Altitudes, Qnh ( ie vertical displacement above mean sea level within the defined area of the station issuing the QNH. . . in other words, we only use LOCAL QNH. . . I remember in the distant past, that when I flew in OZ, I'm sure they used to give an AREA QNH because your country is so implausibly, enormously bloody BIG, but I would have thought that this in itself wasn't a good idea, as the pressure gtradient between two stations 800 miles, ( oh, sorry, I forgot, it's feet for height and Kiiler ometters for distance now isn't it. . . ) Apart, when we get pressure differentials of as much as 25 Mb ( or Hectopascals, as the Euro fanatics now want us to name them. . .) over quite modest distances, but this is one of the problems of flying at 52 degrees North,. . . we don't get the sort of wx stability you get there. . . .

 

Then we have RPS, Regional Pressure Setting, within an Altimeter Setting Region, ASR on the charts, ( there are 20 of these around the British Isles , a couple of them are ALL over water, so the QNH and the Bloody QFE is exactly the same. . . ! They have silly names like Barnsley, Petrel, Shannon, Skerry etc. . . the RPS is an arbitrary calculated figure, derived from long term monthly means ( averages ) and the LOWEST forecast pressure within a region, but this isn't very sensible either, as you COULD bust controlled airspace by flying close beneath it on the RPS, which can indicate a lower altimeter reading than the level you are actually flying at in some circumstances . . . ( my brain hurts ) and then most small airfields will give you a QFE ( altimeter indicating zero feet at their airfield ground level - and very useful. . . ) setting after you have called them and asked for a landing approach. . . !

 

International Airports don't do this though,. . . they just give you their QNH. . . . ( easy isn't it ??? ) well, it IS for the RPT blokes, as they have a feller in the right hand seat who looks in the manual and sets the QFE on one of the OTHER altimeters. . . .! ( Luxury. . .! ) So you have to dive into your airfield manual to check their elevation AMSL, whilst steering with your knees and furtively looking all around you for other competitors like a nervous Dunny rat on speed, so that you can assess the difference between their QNH and QFE, ( or Nautical Height versus elevation ) so you know where to normally turn base and final, based upon your inbuilt, ingrained and well trained height estimation skills ( ? ) otherwise you have to just take a good guess, especially if you can't hold on to the stick with your kneecaps because it's too turbulent. . ..( especially when you come to drop the dunlops and interface at too high a speed with the three miles of concrete,) to fly at a vertical displacement given by Approach control, that won't upset all the Paraffin Budgie crews full of pissed holiday makers going to Benidorm on their hols. . . . See ? I told you we had a much easier system here in the good ole UK !! Usually, most light aircraft drivers are so shellshocked at the end of all this stuff that they don't really notice the handling fee of fifty quid, and the landing fee of a hundred and a half. . . . they are just happy to lie on the ground for a while . . .whimpering. . .

 

Yes,. . . . I reckon that W W W is a far better idea Bryon. I shall suggest it at the next meeting of NAPAS. . . ( Nervous airline pilot alcoholics association ) Phil

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Phil,

You've hit the nail on the head with this comment. Except for a relative handful of airports in our Capital cities, and a few larger regional cities, the majority of our flying is in uncontrolled airspace,so we don't have as many controllers as your country does - and we have low aircraft densities throughout the rest of our airspace.

 

It is a long time since we could go "Full Reporting" on a VFR flight (though I always enjoyed the challenge to be "on track-on time"). I fully agree that a Short Position Report is a good call to make within the vicinity of an airfield, even if you are just overflying it.

 

OME

I only ever went Full Reporting once mate,. . . .( sorry, don't know your personal handle ) I used to use SARTIME which worked for me over the longer distances when ferrying aircraft about that gorgeous, but sometimes terrifying country of yours. . . BUT I ALWAYS carried HF, and made sure that it worked before takeoff. It saved me bacon on a couple of occasions, where general VHF comms were still unable to do the job due to the simple law of of rf propagation physics. . . . . even then, I couldn't understand, and no one ever explained to me rationally, WHY they had NDB stations with a transistorised TEN WATT TRANSMITTER ! ! ! ! this was about as much use as a bloody chocolate fireguard. the range in daylight hours was fairly pathetic, as any old Aussie pilot must agree,. . . . and at night, when the 'D' layer in the ionosphere wasn't being blanked by solar radiation,. . . there was that much other crap on the MF band that it was virtually impossible to positively lock on to a ten watter amongst all the foreign interference due to 'Skip' propagation. VORs were then only available in the main city areas, and coastal points, unless you could climb to many flight levels fifty. . .and even at FL245, I've seen pilots lose the Madrid VOR at a mere 230 Nm !! this is a piddling distance in a land as big as Australia. . . and what bloke who wasn't completely 'Troppo' would ever risk flying small aircraft outback in the dark ? ? ? OK, nowadays, ( If you are a brave man, with a very reliable twin engined light aircraft,. . . you could possibly fly at night in the bush using the ubiquitous GPS system, and be, well, REASONABLY safe,. . . ? and might even get to where you're going if the power supply didn't go on strike. But, I still don't think that I am now brave enough to risk it, even if I was flying IFR in airways, which ( incidentally ) have daft reporting point names which don't equate with anything on the ground over here as well ! ! ! ( They are simply designe d to make VFR pilots feel inadequate ! ) it's OK for the RFDS, I guess they have to, to preserve life, and I take off every hat I own to those pilots.

 

You're right though, we DO have an awful lot of airports and ground radio communications stations that we have to speak to in the UK, so this is possibly why Pommie pilots who move to OZ, get perplexed with the apparent laid back ( or certainly argumentative ) attitude towards aeronautical radio comms . . . . Phil

 

 

[old man emu]

I'm going to stop reading this thread. It is frightening me, especially when my wife was on the computer last night looking at houses for sale in Broadway, near Evesham.

 

OME

 

 

[Phil Perry]

I'm going to stop reading this thread. It is frightening me, especially when my wife was on the computer last night looking at houses for sale in Broadway, near Evesham.OME

Hey, there's a really NICE little airfeild there mate, just next to teh A435 road, off junction 4 of the M42 freeway ( well, Motorway, but you knnow what I mean ) nice big grass strip,

 

Google "Studley - Warwickshire - England, " then identify the A435, move slightly South of the town and the airfield is on the East side of the road, and the runway is parallel to it, and don't forget, in a 90 Kt aeroplane, you're only 40 minutes away from my airfield at OTHERTON nect to the M6 motorway just 1 Nm North and on the East side of Junction 12 where the old A5 Roman road crosses the M6.

 

Studley is only about ten minutes by car from EVESHAM. . . . ( if there's no traffic ! ! ! ! ! )

 

See ya SOON ! ! ! www.othertonairfield.co.uk

 

 

[davebutler]

Hi Phil,

 

Radio procedures here in Oz are a little different to what you may be used to. I learned to fly in the sunny skies of South Africa and we were, like you, taught to give regular position reports, call inbound, overhead, downwind base & final etc. Here they keep radio comms to a minimum which has it's merits but can also be a bit scary at times when you used to hearing & giving position reports. I fly out of YBAF and frequent the VFR routes up and down the east coast and in the early days when I started flying around the Gold Coast, during holidays and whale watching season it scared the bejeezuz out of me. I have got used to it now, it is after all VFR and "See & be Seen".

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Hi Phil,Radio procedures here in Oz are a little different to what you may be used to. I learned to fly in the sunny skies of South Africa and we were, like you, taught to give regular position reports, call inbound, overhead, downwind base & final etc. Here they keep radio comms to a minimum which has it's merits but can also be a bit scary at times when you used to hearing & giving position reports. I fly out of YBAF and frequent the VFR routes up and down the east coast and in the early days when I started flying around the Gold Coast, during holidays and whale watching season it scared the bejeezuz out of me. I have got used to it now, it is after all VFR and "See & be Seen".

Hi Dave, and thanks for the response, YES, I know how quiet things can be on the VHF in OZ, if you have not seen previous posts of mine, then you won't know that I viciously attacked the blue skies in various parts of Australia between 1972 and 1983. . . . in fact I used to get so LONELY up there,. . ( ! ) I used to resort to chatting to the CFA, on smoke net, and even radio Hams on various bands, . . .depending upon what extraneous gear I could secrete in the aeroplanes and power with some crocodile clips off the overhead lamp or something without anyone noticing. . . .! I've been a radio HAM since I was 8 years old, getting my first proper licence to transmit when I was fourteen. . . So I have always been a "Yatterer" and get lonely if I can't talk to SOMEBODY somewhere ! ! ! I once ferried a battered C-170 from Darwin to Alice springs, and this thing had a MORSE KEY projecting from the instrument panel, with a 'pull out' plate beneath it to rest your wrist upon ( luxury ) I can still send morse on a standard up and downer key ( I never liked side-swipers) at around 35 - 40 wpm, but my receive capability is reduced somewhat due to lack of practice. I don't suppose itt'll be long before there will no longer be any beacons or navaids of any sort which use morse for Ident, what with all the current advances in technology. . . you'll just get a sexy female voice ( probably with an American accent. . .) for the idents instead. . .!! Dunno about you,. . . but I've always found that a Female voice on the radio makes me feel warm and secure, ( and NO, I'm not impressed with the way they drive cars but )

 

Phil

 

 

[Phil Perry]

I'm going to stop reading this thread. It is frightening me, especially when my wife was on the computer last night looking at houses for sale in Broadway, near Evesham.OME

Just another thought OME. . . . . .

 

I cannot understand why ( and your movements around the world's geography are entirely YOUR business. . . ) you Wife would want to leave one of the best countries in the galaxy,. . . . I could understand it if she wanted to move to Turkey, where the people are absolutely lovely, and the language is not that hard to learn ( they all spik inglish ) with beautiful weather for most of the year round, and EXTREMELY GOOD beer, ( EFES ) . . . . a GOOD economy, . . . . ( I have some savings there, paying 13.5 % interest on a Turkish Lira account. . . . )I can easily understand why she wouldn't want to go to the Greek end of Cyprus, where a mate of mine who emigrated there a couple of years ago, has just had half his life savings nicked by the government to pay off a huge European financial bail out debt, and he might lose even more yet. . . . . Spain is knackered, and about to be bailed out by the EU, God only knows what this will cost the Brit expatriates who have moved there for some sunshine in their retirement, and E N G L A N D . . . . . . .YOU MUST BE JOKING ? ? ? I can only conclude that Mrs. OME has a tendency toward rapid financial self destruction on a monumental scale, unless she cannot cope with brown grass ( I rather liked that when I was in OZ . . . ) It IS, quite GREEN over here ( apart from the seven months of winter, when it's white ) However,. . . if. . .affter all this is understood, both yourself and Mrs. OME will be made very welcome by our local flying and Harley Davidson Riders community. ( ! )

 

Phil

 

 

[ben87r]

Not according to http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/pilots/download/vfr/vfrg-whole-low.pdf (see page 235-236 and following notes)Do you have some evidence to support your opinion ?

Dont have my Docs with me at the moment but it is in the ATC section of the jepps under CTAF procedures and also under communicati0n section it has the preferred general broadcast to be used and states again there, is in the CAR's as well i would reckon but cant think where off the top of my head

 

 

[ben87r]

Not according to http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/pilots/download/vfr/vfrg-whole-low.pdf (see page 235-236 and following notes)Do you have some evidence to support your opinion ?

The pilot is inbound CTAF

 

Broadcast 10 nm from the aerodrome, or earlier, commensurate with aeroplane performance and pilot workload, with an estimated time of arrival (ETA) for the aerodrome

 

That was on page 235, I only just read it now.