Options - GA to RA

[Guest Bigfella]

So, I've come to a bit of a crossroad in my life, been through the midlife crisis etc and need to pull my head in financially, so to speak. I've loved every bit of my training so far to date but my current financial position is not going to allow me to continue to spend $350/hr on GA lessons out of Moorabbin so I'm tossing around options that may continue to let me fly.

 

I have just on 50hrs, 8hrs solo, and was close to booking in for my GFPT test flight.

 

Obviously being a member here I understand that RA allows for a more affordable form of flying and I cant see why I wouldn't take this option at this point in time.

 

What I'm looking for specifically is advise on;

 

- Is there any disadvantage/advantage of completing my GFPT before going over to RA? (would prefer not to, see cost above!)

 

- What level of training is involved to get RA certificate with my level of experience? (see above)

 

- Can I transfer back to GA at any time in the future? (no idea why but would like to know)

 

- Excuse my ignorance but is there any current implications with RAA certificate licensing or does this only relate to registration of RA aircraft?

 

- can anyone recommend either Tyabb or Tooradin for training? I'm leaning towards tyabb as they seem to have a little more variety of aircraft and is only 10min from home. I actually like the look of the Foxbat, is my 6'5" bean pole frame going to squeeze into it?

 

Thats all I can think of at the moment but happy to listen any other advise people may have.

 

Cheers,

 

Bigfella

 

 

[ben87r]

I think if you ever wanted to go back it would be allot easier to finish but as for going to RA i wouldn't think it made a difference as you still have over the min hours so when happy they would issue your cert. May be wrong tho

 

 

[boingk]

What I'm looking for specifically is advise on;- Is there any disadvantage/advantage of completing my GFPT before going over to RA? (would prefer not to, see cost above!)

No advantage unless you want to pursue a GA licence at some point down the road. Even then, you could still just do your GFPT then. I have a GFPT and an ASIC card... they both sit in the bottom of my drawer unused.

 

- What level of training is involved to get RA certificate with my level of experience? (see above)

10 hours flying time in an RAA registered craft, minimum 1 hour solo time.

 

- Can I transfer back to GA at any time in the future? (no idea why but would like to know)

Yes, RAA is not a transfer so much as an additional certification. You keep all your GA hours in your logbook and they will still count in the future. Depending on the timeframe (we're talking years here) you may need to complete an instructor check and a new ASIC card or medical.

 

- Excuse my ignorance but is there any current implications with RAA certificate licensing or does this only relate to registration of RA aircraft?

No implications as far as I am aware... not really sure what you are meaning in this instance. RAA aircraft are able to be flown with either a PPL and above or an RAA Flight Certificate. It is the RAA equivalent of a PPL, and limits your flight to daytime VFR, 1 passenger, craft totalling (mostly) not above 600kg MTOW, flight not above 10,000ft and within Australia. In other words... a fairly good chunk of airspace!

 

As I mentioned before, I did my conversion to RAA from GA at GFPT level after deciding not to pursue a CPL career but still wanting to fly privately. RAA was the best option for me, and I think for most people. It is cost efficient and much better on the side of aircraft ownership, eg no $5k 100hr checks from a licenced aircraft mechanic, simply get your Level 2 cert and do it yourself.

 

Tyabb?

I would recommend the closer place with more aircraft... not that I am familiar with either but that sounds like a good recipe for flying regularly. Flying regularly is the key to getting things done efficiently, or you simply spend 50% of your flight time becoming reacquainted with the craft.

 

At 6'5" you may have some trouble in some RAA craft - I am 6'2" or 3" and find a Gazelle, for example, to be fine on headroom but very tight on legs; a 2hr flight is all I can manage in one and I'd rather 40~60 minutes. Ask the instructors what is available and if you can see what you fit comfortable in. Make sure controls are not an issue while you are doing so - ensure you get full range of movement without having to adjust your position greatly, or preferably at all.

 

Cheers - boingk

 

 

[Guest Bigfella]

Great, thanks Boingk,

 

Thats why I preempted my question with "excuse my ignorance" dont know what made me think there was a problem with RA licensing

 

Looks like Tyabb have a skycatcher, gazelle & foxbat for RA training, size may be an issue.....another disadvantage of being a 'bigfella'

 

Another question, what theory component is required for RA cert, fairly confident I would pass the BAK exam

 

Cheers,

 

Bigfella

 

 

[jorditzu9]

Hi Bigfella,

 

I can relate to your situation, i had passed my gfpt in september last year and realised there was no point going all the way with a ppl if i didnt intend to use the privlages that comes with it. i have started flying a j170 out of archerfield and loving every minute of it, currently i have 1 more nav until my cross country test.

 

 

[boingk]

Its similar to the BAK, yes, and covers basic elements of flight knowledge. Make sure you brush up on VFR conditions and flight requirements, navigation techniques (including 1/60's) and emergency flight procedures including giving way to and overtaking aircraft.

 

Cheers - boingk

 

 

[joeyo68]

Hi Bigfella,

 

I converted over to RAA about 12 months ago after a 10 year break from flying. I live in the Frankston South/Baxter area, and chose Tyabb over Toordin based on two things, proximity to home, and also because they maintain their RAA registered aircraft to GA standards. Given your height, I would go to each of the aerodromes and sit in each of the aircraft that the schools use and see what you are comfortable in. The Cessna Skycatchers are a bit different to fly, especially during the flare and landing, they are very responsiveto control input and take a bit to get used to. The Gazelles are docile to fly, and i have been told that the Foxbat is somewhere in between. The Foxbat they have online is fitted with control columns, not the centre stick, so would be easy for you to convert over to, assuming you have been flying either a cessna or piper trainer. If you want to get in contact to discuss more, PM me with your details and I will give you a call.

 

Good luck with your future flying.

 

Cheers,

 

Joe

 

 

[ruffasguts]

No advantage unless you want to pursue a GA licence at some point down the road. Even then, you could still just do your GFPT then. I have a GFPT and an ASIC card... they both sit in the bottom of my drawer unused.

 

10 hours flying time in an RAA registered craft, minimum 1 hour solo time.

 

Yes, RAA is not a transfer so much as an additional certification. You keep all your GA hours in your logbook and they will still count in the future. Depending on the timeframe (we're talking years here) you may need to complete an instructor check and a new ASIC card or medical.

 

No implications as far as I am aware... not really sure what you are meaning in this instance. RAA aircraft are able to be flown with either a PPL and above or an RAA Flight Certificate. It is the RAA equivalent of a PPL, and limits your flight to daytime VFR, 1 passenger, craft totalling (mostly) not above 600kg MTOW, flight not above 10,000ft and within Australia. In other words... a fairly good chunk of airspace!

 

As I mentioned before, I did my conversion to RAA from GA at GFPT level after deciding not to pursue a CPL career but still wanting to fly privately. RAA was the best option for me, and I think for most people. It is cost efficient and much better on the side of aircraft ownership, eg no $5k 100hr checks from a licenced aircraft mechanic, simply get your Level 2 cert and do it yourself.

 

I would recommend the closer place with more aircraft... not that I am familiar with either but that sounds like a good recipe for flying regularly. Flying regularly is the key to getting things done efficiently, or you simply spend 50% of your flight time becoming reacquainted with the craft.

 

At 6'5" you may have some trouble in some RAA craft - I am 6'2" or 3" and find a Gazelle, for example, to be fine on headroom but very tight on legs; a 2hr flight is all I can manage in one and I'd rather 40~60 minutes. Ask the instructors what is available and if you can see what you fit comfortable in. Make sure controls are not an issue while you are doing so - ensure you get full range of movement without having to adjust your position greatly, or preferably at all.

 

Cheers - boingk

Raaus aircraft cannot be flown on a PPl only an Raaus pilot certificate

Mick

 

 

[boingk]

Raaus aircraft cannot be flown on a PPl only an Raaus pilot certificateMick

Sorry I meant to have said as much in my post, but I've worded it wrong. Thanks for the heads up so I can edit it.

 

- boingk

 

EDIT: I can't edit it... so I'll rewrite here:

 

"RAA aircraft are able to be flown with PPL & RAA Flight Certificate, or just an RAA Flight Certificate."

 

That's better. The reason RAA craft need their own Cert is that they generally have a much lighter wing loading and land and handle differently than traditionally more heavily loaded GA craft.

 

 

[metalman]

Personally I'd finish the GFPT it's a big of a milestone in the GA journey and then go RAA if needed, if your close enough to take the test then I'd do it. It may be just me but I hate leaving stuff half done. Also I own a Kitfox type ( same size as a Gazelle) and at 6'3"and 115 kg I fill it up pretty well but it's still comfy enough and I can use the controls to their extents, good luck

 

 

[dazza 38]

I'm with Met. Finish your GFPT. It helps with GA schools who know nothing about RAA, at least they know what GFPT is, if you decide to go onto a PPL. Plus it can be converted to the new RPL when it comes out. GFPT is being replaced by the RPL. Before that GFPT replaced the restricted PPL

 

 

[68volksy]

My only comment would be that RA is really only cheaper if you own and maintain your own aircraft. If you're not interested in buying your own aircraft and doing your own maintenance then you'll be stuck with hiring anyway. With an RA aircraft hiring can be an absolute minefield due to the massive variation in maintenance standards between all the organisations that hire aircraft. Basically they can write their own rules about most maintenance issues. You've got to consider all these things when making the decision and remember the "it's cheaper" statement comes with a massive caveat.

 

If you can find yourself a nice little two-seat GA aircraft for a cheaper rate you'll be onto a winner in my view. You'll find plenty of 150's or Tomohawks out there for hire for $150 an hour or less. All with current maintenance releases and 40-50 years of proven reliability - something i personally value highly.

 

 

[Guest Bigfella]

ok dazza/met, that makes sense

 

So what your saying is the new RPL will supersede GFPT, so then what will be involved in getting RA pilot cert training wise?

 

Am I correct in saying it will just become an endorsement on the RPL?

 

Any idea when this will come into effect?

 

Cheers,

 

Bigfella

 

 

[Guest Bigfella]

Thanks Volksy, its all staring to make a bit more sense now, because of my situation I'm focusing purely on the finances, probably making a little bit of knee jerk reaction.

 

Even just moving from Morrabbin to Tyabb and seeing out my GFPT is saving me $70-$100/hr in dual fees, then again I've built up a pretty good relationship with my instructor at Moorabbin so for the sake of a little more training I probably better staying with what I have and just taking a little longer to do it.

 

I just have to complete 2hrs IFR and prac search with a bit of consolidation and I'm done, I have enough solo hours......

 

Thanks for all your help

 

Cheers,

 

Bigfella

 

 

[metalman]

I got to the GFPT point and the school shut down, so I went to the local RAA school and did the conversion, about five hours , and then went on to do the navs with RAA , I'd also done the BAK with the GA school so once I was seen as competent in a tecnam I was let loose. Not sure but I think the RPL shouldn't be to far off, you can already get a lower PPL with a modified medical and a few restrictions now.

 

 

[dazza 38]

ok dazza/met, that makes senseSo what your saying is the new RPL will supersede GFPT, so then what will be involved in getting RA pilot cert training wise?

Am I correct in saying it will just become an endorsement on the RPL?

 

Any idea when this will come into effect?

 

Cheers,

 

Bigfella

Hi Bigfella, A pilot who holds a PPL, RPL or GFPT can not fly a RAA registered aircraft as pilot in command. They must do a conversion as Met has mentioned in the above post. There is no endorsement that can attached to a GA licence. In a nut shell, they must be a financial member of the RAA and hold a RAA pilot certificate with the correct endorsements (eg- TW) .

 

 

[boingk]

Bingo.

 

I got an RAA student licence, then an RAA licence with HF/HP/LP/NW/PX/R, then another with X/TW... all within about 2 months or so, despite having obtained a GFPT.

 

Cheers - boingk

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Great, thanks Boingk,Thats why I preempted my question with "excuse my ignorance" dont know what made me think there was a problem with RA licensing

Looks like Tyabb have a skycatcher, gazelle & foxbat for RA training, size may be an issue.....another disadvantage of being a 'bigfella'

 

Another question, what theory component is required for RA cert, fairly confident I would pass the BAK exam

 

Cheers,

 

Bigfella

Hi Bigbloke,. . .

 

When my mate Gordon first imported the A22 Foxbat type from Kiev, one of the (then) PFA check pilots was also a fairly tall bloke. He said he was not happy with the fact that he barked his lower legs on the underside of the instrument panel, and found it very uncomfortable to fly with his feet on the rudder controls. . Gordon thought that, since the average height of a male human in the UK is a lot less than this particular guy, that he was being OVER sensitive in this respect. Since that time, the Foxbat has been type accepted in various forms, and there are a lot of them now built and flying over here, and it is a Very Nice, well sorted aeroplane, with good load carrying capacity and a very good cruise range. There are a lot of Foxbats around in Australia, and I have no Idea if this has been a problem there, I've no doubt there will be other forum members who will advise on that point. AND BY THE WAY. . . Don't get too cocky about BAK exams, I used to set some really HORRIBLE questions when I was instructing, but then, . . .as the wife says, I was a right - - - - - - - - ( fill in the space yourself ) !

 

Good fortune anyway.

 

Phil

 

 

[metalman]

Well Phil, CASA gets to pick the BAK question here and at times it feels like a test in English comprehension rather than aeronautical knowledge,,,,,,and they can be ba5tards!

 

I probably do 20 to 1 TW hours to training wheel hours, I usually do wheelers , the last flying comp our club had I came sliding down final ,concentrating on the spot landing , rounded out ,thinking "looking old" ,,,,,,the instructor quietly says " please flare,please" ,,,,oh yeah oops !

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Well Phil, CASA gets to pick the BAK question here and at times it feels like a test in English comprehension rather than aeronautical knowledge,,,,,,and they can be ba5tards!I probably do 20 to 1 TW hours to training wheel hours, I usually do wheelers , the last flying comp our club had I came sliding down final ,concentrating on the spot landing , rounded out ,thinking "looking old" ,,,,,,the instructor quietly says " please flare,please" ,,,,oh yeah oops !

Sorry Met,. . . . DCA used to set the ACTUAL questions back then also, what I should have highlighted was that, after my lectures, I set MOCK exams. . . . using some really bizarre, BUT RELATED questions covering the syllabus segment that we'd been discussing during the course. If you have ever done any lecturing or teaching to a classroom full of adults. then you will know what I mean about how easy it is to allow the lesson to start moving rapidy OFF TOPIC, . . . this, of course is usually initiated by ONE student asking a question which is PARTIALLY related to the topic being discussed, and will easily lead to total confusion to everyone else, losing the structure of the lesson, and thereby missing the POINT you were attempting to convey. . . if you don't maintain a level of control.

 

This is particularly important if you get a student who knows possibly as much . . . or even MORE than YOU do about a subject. . . I had several of these guys, . . .you know, . . old, well experienced ex - military or ex- airline jockeys who had been out of flying for a number of years, but HAD to go through the same stuff as the newbies to regain a flying ticket. . . . and were really GOOD at throwing in a really complicated question on a subject which was dear to them. . . This is a difficult one, and I found that the best way to prevent them from shooting me down and buggering up my lecture for everyone else,. . was to ask if they could leave the question until after the class had concluded, and I would discuss it then. . . . AND bring it up at the next meeting. This usually worked . . .but not always. It caused me to get my head into the books in the week and hopefully come up with a creditable response, and, if possible. . . a real sod of a return question which, hopefully, would get them "umming an arrring. . . . "

 

I had one bloke, whom I just COULD NOT satisfy,. . . he must've had a brain like Einstein. . . so I told him to come up to the front and explain his theory to the class as a whole, and I sat with them !! After loads of daft questions from the students ( gawd bless 'em ) he gave it neck and sat down.

 

Since then, if I ever take a BAK class ( yes,. . .we DO have them here as well, but we call it Ground School ! ! ) I ALWAYS ask every student to stand up, introduce him / her self and tell the gathering all about their previous experience ( if any ) this solves the problem. Gotta be honest, I usually only do Radio comms and procedures nowadays. . . . ( coward )

 

Phil

 

 

[Guest Bigfella]

Thanks for the info on the Foxbat Phil, going to go down and have a sit in it and see what I think.

 

I didnt intend to come across as cocky in regards to he BAK exam it's just that because of my involuntary grounding I've had plenty of time to study! For me the hardest thing seems to be getting a broad enough range of practice questions to test my knowledge, I've done the ubiquitous bob tait stuff and also the rob avery practice questions which seem to cover alot more, albiet a little out dated, still referring to GAAP aerodromes.

 

An instructor recently advised I used the RTFQ principal when doing exams (Read The F*#%ing Question) as the main aim of the people writing the exams is to fool you with the wording of the questions.

 

Cheers,

 

Bigfella

 

 

[ben87r]

An instructor recently advised I used the RTFQ principal

This is massively important with the CASA exams. Ive been told directly that they use it as an English comprehension exam aswell