CTSW Flips on landing

[Phil Perry]

 

The pilot got into a "Cyclic" bounce on landing, ( for early learners, this is akin to "Kangarooing" the clutch on your car dddddriving lessons. . . .) which got worse very quickly until the noseleg collapsed, producing the result shown. Maybe a "Go Around" might have been a better idea ( just MY opinion, I wasn't there. . . ) There were, fortunately no major injuries. ( Pilot qualification not reported - - but HEY. . . .Everyone makes mistakes. . . ? )

 

Incident at Old Sarum airfield, Southern UK, early April 2013.

 

Phil

 

 

[metalman]

One bounce,,,,two bounce,,,hit the throttle ,,,,cause something's probably going to break on the third one, that was how I was taught, although when I started flying aeroplanes( taildraggers) without training wheels I found that the definitions change a bit,,,what could be called a bounce could be just "bit of a skip" ,just trickle on some power and keep the stick back ;-)

 

 

[facthunter]

It's a feature of the "simpler" tricycle gear. If the nosewheel is going to contact first , do something about it before it does.nev

 

 

[Neil_S]

[ATTACH=full]21643[/ATTACH]The pilot got into a "Cyclic" bounce on landing, ( for early learners, this is akin to "Kangarooing" the clutch on your car dddddriving lessons. . . .) which got worse very quickly until the noseleg collapsed, producing the result shown. Maybe a "Go Around" might have been a better idea ( just MY opinion, I wasn't there. . . ) There were, fortunately no major injuries. ( Pilot qualification not reported - - but HEY. . . .Everyone makes mistakes. . . ? )

 

Incident at Old Sarum airfield, Southern UK, early April 2013.

 

Phil

Hi Phil,

 

I visited Old Sarum last year when over in the UK, mainly to look at the BE2A replica in the museum. Nice place and friendly people. Shame about the flip.

 

Cheers

 

Neil

 

 

[dazza 38]

If pilots who fly ultralights and LSA type aircraft, got in their head to hold off and let the aircraft settle onto the runway on its own accord. Instead of trying to drive it on or forcing the aircraft onto the ground. They wouldn't do wheel barrow landings and stuff aircraft.

 

 

[metalman]

Something else I was taught pretty early on the ultralight journey was that the nose wheel is only for taxiing and parking , it is not to be considered "landing" gear. I can't think of too many lighties that have much in the way of strong nose wheels, even the RV's are a bit light on up front

 

 

[Ultralights]

only recently i was watching a strutless cessna perform 7 bounces off the nosewheel, the pitch moment in the last 3 bounces were enough to cause 3 tail strikes in the one landing, well, after the 7th bounce off the noswheel, he decided to go-around.

 

 

[facthunter]

No NOsewheel is designed to hit first. The aeroplane is flared to a nose-up attitude and settles onto the mains and the nose lowered to the runway (quite carefully in the case of larger aircraft). The porpoising that gradually gets worse is more a thing of smaller planes where there is no real damping of the landing gear, and spoilers are not deployed. Quite a few "light" aircraft have been written off by this. (Mooneys are susceptible). It's usually caused by too fast an approach, or correcting a bounce by pushing the stick forward. I believe that by the time it has happened twice it is time to give it away and go around. ( IF not sooner). Nev

 

 

[Virago]

I did my taildragger endorsement on an Auster. I was taught to iron out ANY bounce with throttle and then flare again ... or go around. My first solo in the beast took three circuits to get it safely on the ground. Flying the Pawnee was a dream after the Auster ... but flying the Callair is yet another story!

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

We teach conversions in this aircraft and part of the type brief is 1 bounce allowed 2 and go around( just like a tail dragger), the SW has a short tail moment and it will become divergent very quickly as the elevator runs out of effectiveness. The LS and MC versions are much more benign , but as other have said, pilots should not think the nose wheel should be part of the landing process, it is particularly vulnerable in most if not all tricycle ultralight aircraft.

 

 

[Sapphire]

Some pilots have the primative notion that if an a/c does not want to stay on the ground, push the stick forward. That would work if planes were built like bricks. Seen one light twin sitting on the runway and a broken off nosewheel nearby.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

No NOsewheel is designed to hit first. The aeroplane is flared to a nose-up attitude and settles onto the mains and the nose lowered to the runway (quite carefully in the case of larger aircraft). The porpoising that gradually gets worse is more a thing of smaller planes where there is no real damping of the landing gear, and spoilers are not deployed. Quite a few "light" aircraft have been written off by this. (Mooneys are susceptible). It's usually caused by too fast an approach, or correcting a bounce by pushing the stick forward. I believe that by the time it has happened twice it is time to give it away and go around. ( IF not sooner). Nev

I agree most vociferously ( is that a real word ? ) Learning to fly in tailwheel aircraft helped me a lot in this regard, as most normal landings were either three point or at least a teeny bit of tail down applied. I didn't get into "Wheel" landings until a little further in training, so it got ingrained as the default attitude for landings. This "Nose - First" thing must be getting more prevalent though, as on my last re-val flight in a Pa28/200 Arrow 3, the young AFI in charge was really getting sweaty when he thought I might "Nose" it in at the end of a simulated engine off approach. . . even though I promised him I wouldn't. . . !!

 

I have flown with an ex-Dak pilot of many years, who had not flown a light aircraft with trike U/C for over a decade, . . . ( for non - Dakkers, wheel landings are the norm as the fuselage near the tail will kink just forward of the fin if you get a loaded 3 point landing attempt badly wrong ) he was GOING to nose it in, as his normal, comfortable "Wheel - Landing" attitude was a little bit too tail - up, and the Piper Tipacer would not have liked this at all. . . . especially seeing as we were travelling at around 78 Kts at the time ( ! )

 

For the engineering - minded amongst you, have a GOOD look at what's securing the nosewheel in YOUR light sport aircraft, what it's bolted to, and how strong it isn't. . . and it all becomes clear. As another poster on this thread has already highlighted, it's for parking and taxying, and also to prevent the prop from hitting the grass, concrete or gravel until the flight controls begin to work their black magic . . . . Has anyone here done a nice, well flared "Gear - Up" landing. . . OOPS, Don't answer that, Off Topic. . . . need another thread.

 

Phil.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

It's a feature of the "simpler" tricycle gear. If the nosewheel is going to contact first , do something about it before it does.nev

Ahhh, . . . but doesn't that mean teaching students at a very early stage in their training how to "Think Ahead of the aeroplane " ?? I never found out how to satisfactorily teach that bit ! ! ! ! ! !

 

Good point though. Phil

 

 

[Tomo]

Bounces usually happen when there is no wind, perfect day and a large audience. Everytime.

 

And the bounce proportion is indicated by how many eyes are looking in the direction of up and coming, bounce.

 

 

[metalman]

Watch a very experienced P51 pilot do a HUGE couple of bounces in a classic Waco last weekend , lots of witnesses! I had a personal rule "never do a wheelie (motorbike) in front of a crowd" , it gets a bit hard when they build aeroclubs at the thresholds !

 

 

[boingk]

Part of the reason I like flying tailwheel - not because you can get lax and bounce on by, but because you want to be as slow as possible so you can handle the beast on the ground! Sure your maingear is very strong, but just settling her in is a charm when done right.

 

Having said that, yes, I've had a bounce or two... and yes, generally with a more than a few watching and on perfect days! They all said it looked fine, though, but from the pilots seat I could certainly tell she wanted to go back up before coming down again.

 

Cheers - boingk

 

 

[biggles5128]

It is amazing how people try to turn a bad landing into a good one.... this can be done with plenty of runway and good control with experience behind you....... but there is a lot less shame in going around than bending the aeroplane. When I was instructing the CFI made it compulsory that we teach students bounce recovery, this is not in the syllabus (it wasn't then) but should be. IMHO

 

 

[boingk]

Had to go around myself today because I was too high on an unfamiliar runway - 08 at YGLB is not often used due to prevailing winds favouring 22 / 26 or directly down 04.

 

If I'd tried to make it stick I would've done a lot more than bounce!

 

- boingk

 

 

[Guest nunans]

One can even snap the nose gear out of a cherokee with a bit of persistence!!

 

 

 

[dazza 38]

One can even snap the nose gear out of a cherokee with a bit of persistence!!

I hope that Pilot and I used the term pilot loosely, retired from flying and took up another hobby like Knitting.

 

 

[metalman]

One can even snap the nose gear out of a cherokee with a bit of persistence!!

Got give an A for effort, its not easy to knock that pesky nose wheel off a piper!

 

 

[facthunter]

That's a pretty good example of what happens if you persist (and HE/SHE ccertainly DID). You can't coordinate the controls to correct it. Going around is the answer and the earlier the better the outcome. Nev

 

 

[Guernsey]

He would be now fully qualified to obtain a job pushing a wheelbarrow.

 

Alan.

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

Yep that's what not to do! The rule is DONT persist - do 1 loaded gun - do 2 in the p.., go for seconds damage beckons.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

I hope that Pilot and I used the term pilot loosely, retired from flying and took up another hobby like Knitting.

Hi Daz, . . . . there's a video on youtube entitled Vans RV7 forward flip at Croft Farm ( UK ) this is a nice little airfield not far from where I live, and I was there at the time, unfortunately in the burger tent ( ! ) this pilot, evidently, tried to land way too fast . . developed a rapid cyclic bounce and the nosewheel detatched causing it to flip forward. I have not bothered to post the vid as it's a bit blurry and taken from the rear of the parking area. . . I know the owner of the plane personally, and he says it all happened so fast he didn't have time to go around ( ? ? ? ? ? ? ) mmmmmm,

 

Phil