CTSW Flips on landing

[facthunter]

Most likely his brain wasn't programmed to consider a go round. If you are ready for it just happens ( as it should). Like you say stay ahead of the aeroplane. Nev

 

 

[pudestcon]

He would be now fully qualified to obtain a job pushing a wheelbarrow. Alan.

I certainly wouldn't hire him to push a wheelbarrow - there'd be nothing in it by the time he got to the work face!!!

Pud

 

 

[Phil Perry]

I certainly wouldn't hire him to push a wheelbarrow - there'd be nothing in it by the time he got to the work face!!!Pud

You're dead right Pud. . . . I once knew a building site foreman who had an Irish labourer on the site who complained that . . . " Sirr,. dere's someting rong wit me wheel barrow,. . . it keeps going " EEK. . . . . . . . . .EEK. . . . . . . .. . . . . . EEK. . . . . . . . . . . .EEK. . . . . . ". . . . . .The boss said "you're fired ! ! ! !

 

The Irishman replied. . ."Sure and why is dat ? ? ? ?". . . . . . the boss said. . . . . "That wheelbarrow SHOULD be going. .. . . .EEK EEK EEK EEK. . . . . ."

 

Phil

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Most likely his brain wasn't programmed to consider a go round. If you are ready for it just happens ( as it should). Like you say stay ahead of the aeroplane. Nev

Nev. . . . . my very FIRST proper instructor, on my very first. . . proper, legal flying lesson said to me. . . ."look at this aeroplane" ( Auster ) . . . .so I did. . . . . .he then sad, "looks lovely doesn't it ? ". . . . . . I agreed. . . . . . he then said. . . ." Well, I can almost guarantee that something will go wrong with the bloody thing when we're flying it. . . . ." ! ! I must add that, at this stage, I was not yet introduced to the idea of doing a "Daily" or any pre-flight walkaround at all. . . . But that was . . . back then. . . .( The ground crew personnel were responsible for making sure the aeroplane was serviceable for flight,. . . and would NOT dream of trusting a simple PILOT to accomplish such an important and technical task )I don't even remember the name of my instructor,. . . in those days, we were taught to respect the men who taught flying as SKY GODS, and we would NEVER expect to call them anyting other than "SIR" My Skygod, had been, ( amongst other roles which he never mentioned no doubt. . .) a Typhoon ground attack pilot in WW2. . . . ventilating railway trains, and columns of armoured vehicles crowded on some road or other in France, using his 20mm cannon or whatever nasty gunnery the things were fitted with then. . . and was, looking back, possibly indignant about what he was having to do for a living thenadays. . . . . ie, teaching spotty young scrots to fly, and not being able to shoot at, or blow up anything. . . . !

 

These guys were the early civilian airline pilots, who made first officer's lives a bloody misery, . . .consigning them to raising and lowereing the gear, and telling them to keep their gob shut in all other aspects of the flight. . . . .ie, NOT the teamwork managers we know today, who share their responsibilities and have produced what certainly appears to be a fairly well balanced and relatively safe industry. . .

 

Anyway, NOTHING went wrong with the "bloody thing",. . .although he moaned and complained about everything for the whole hour. . . . . . I was still enthralled, and still am, every time I apply sufficient rearwards pressure on a stick or column to enable levitation, or De-Interface with the Earth to occur. . . . . ( Or,. . . sufficient collective,. . .throttle twist, left pedal, and slight forward cyclic pitch . . . . Sorry Alan, [ H.I.C.] didn't want to leave your bloody weird lot out of the story. . . . . ) ANYWAY. . . the point ( finally ) of my reply Nev, was that at EVERY opportunity, the instuctor said to me. . . . ."That's no good now lad,. . . . You really MUST stay AHEAD of the aeroplane. . . . . . . " It took me quite a while to understand that philosophy. . . !

 

Phil

 

 

[metalman]

Mmmm, staying ahead of the aeroplane never really hit home till I flew a mates red hot RV7, the fastest thing I'd been in was a 180hp 172, I arrived in the circuit doing about 170kias managed to very sloppily loose most of the speed somewhere on base ,,,and then float down the 2000 m runway using quite a lot of it ,,,,,my mate,a pretty good instructor and very good glider pilot, asked what I thought about the performance( mine, not the RV?),,,," geez mate I was still about ten miles out when the RVwas on final"!

 

I've since spent a fair bit of time in RV's and you get ahead of the speeds fairly quickly ,but that first time!!!

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Mmmm, staying ahead of the aeroplane never really hit home till I flew a mates red hot RV7, the fastest thing I'd been in was a 180hp 172, I arrived in the circuit doing about 170kias managed to very sloppily loose most of the speed somewhere on base ,,,and then float down the 2000 m runway using quite a lot of it ,,,,,my mate,a pretty good instructor and very good glider pilot, asked what I thought about the performance( mine, not the RV?),,,," geez mate I was still about ten miles out when the RVwas on final"!I've since spent a fair bit of time in RV's and you get ahead of the speeds fairly quickly ,but that first time!!!

I found that out when I flew A22 Foxbat - UK 001 for the first time at our rather tiny airfield Met,. . . the airspeed had to be reduced BEFORE the shortish published downwind leg, as the thing was quite slippery compared to other microlights around at the time, and if you left this until Base leg, you'd simply float forever, even with full flap deployed, as any excess airspeed just Wouldn't bleed off quickly enough. This took around half a day of various circuits for me to get the hang of it, before the boss would allow me to demonstrate the machine to prospective kit buyers.

 

Of course, to anyone actually learning to fly ab-initio in their new one, it wouldn't be so much of a problem I guess. This is the trouble with being an airfield Tart and flying too many different types ! I found that after a while, I developed quite a good level of general mediocrity with most of them ! Vans types are the scariest at our place, even our ex-CAA coach clipped the ploughed field next door on approach in his single seat RV3 recently !

 

Fast ships - - - short fields - - - Good brakes ? !

 

Phil

 

 

[Jabiru7252]

Could have been any one of us when we were learning.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Could have been any one of us when we were learning.

Nope, assuming you are talking about the Cherokee.

If you are talking about the LSA, I agree it could happen I guess. That's the trouble with Ultralights/LSA aircraft. Undercarriages are build to a weight limit which generally means that they are relatively weak when compared to GA aircraft.

 

 

[Jabiru7252]

Talking about any crappy landing in any plane. I landed like that with 250 hours in the book, experience told me to go around which I am sure saved my plane some pain.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Anybody can do a crappy landing. But that Cherokee landing was outright aircraft abuse.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

MM, Had a similiar experience in my ex-bosses RV-6 TD. Finally arrived over the threshold at about 60 Kts and I can tell you my first landing in the RV was a lot prettier than his in my 582 Drifter, with me me in the back of course !................................Maj...

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

On the CTSW...ouch....there was a similiar outcome last week at Ayr NQld with what looks like a Pipistral Sinus or similar. Great photo in the loval rag with it on it's back minus Nose wheel.

 

Highlights one major problem with all composit airframes, in that you get it back on it's wheel and all looks good. However apart from the obvious external damage, internal de-lamination or other damage has probabily occurred which could be of a very serious nature.

 

This can only be detected or ruled out by inspection by an approved and experienced composit man, using aural tap-testing or ultrasound inspection techniques which are quite specialized and can be costly.

 

More often the case the owner say "looks great, no damage....aren't these composit aircraft tough !!"....and promptly lists the aircraft for sale.

 

If purchasing any composit aircraft, throughly peruse maintenance logbooks and pay close attention to any past 'crash or damage history'............................................................Maj...

 

 

[metalman]

MM, Had a similiar experience in my ex-bosses RV-6 TD. Finally arrived over the threshold at about 60 Kts and I can tell you my first landing in the RV was a lot prettier than his in my 582 Drifter, with me me in the back of course !................................Maj...

Geez Maj, you must have balls of steel,,, 60knots in a RV6 on final, I've only flown them that slow when I wanted to stall the bugger, it happens around 50 , but its a good stall with plenty of warning. I've got a mate who owns a warrior ( yeh I know but he's a good bloke otherwise) did a lap in an RV 7 , over controlled it to buggery but fell in love with it at the same time.

 

 

[kgwilson]

When I was training in a C152 my CFI was obsessed with ensuring I did a good flare and then holding the nosewheel off for as long as possible, then keeping the yoke right back till stopped outside the clubhouse. I don't hold it right back when taxiing back now but always keep some up elevator especially with rough fields to reduce stress on the nosewheel.

 

I've bounced too but always off the main gear. If it's a decent bounce I generally hold the flare & use a bit of throttle to get it to settle for the proper landing. I've never had a 3rd one because after the second it is full throttle & go around. That's the plan any way because the second one has always been a goodie.

 

 

[facthunter]

When these new fangled tricycle U/C planes made their way into the scene, we still insisted that the stall warning sound before the wheels touched down ( Mains only of course.)

 

This pitching porpoising thing is nor difficult. I managed it in a C -182 after thousands of hours, but I was occupied with finding a ditch I knew was somewhere on the strip. I wasn't sure that I had crossed over it before touching down so deliberately left my touchdown point rather late. There's always an excuse, but I sure was preoccupied , as I was unable to visually verify something which I thought would be easy, from the air. Nev

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Staying on the associated subject of Nose Wheels, Our fleet of Sport Cruisers has been grounded by the LAA due to the discovery of hairline cracks in the nosewheel assembly. This has really pissed off our airfield manager, as he just sold his Vans RV3 and bought one of these. And although his passed a complete inspection prior to purchase, they have all had a mandatory which means the entire assembly has to be replaced, Piper Aircraft sell the assembly at the super discount price of 4,300 bucks - 'Ish. . . Piper were, as you may remember, going to further develop, and take over manufacture and marketing of that particular Czechoslovakian design and "Piperize" it, but for some reason, they backed out of the deal.

 

Whether this problem is all, or partly as a result of wheelbarrowing, is anybody's guess, but a similar situation happened to our fleet of Evekto Eurostars ( Sport Star in OZ ) too, I think this one was exacerbated by water retention and corrsion within the top of the bearing assembly though. Anyway, the company building those has just gone bust, and is in the process of being taken over, . . Thye used to build them one at a time in an old barn, and couldn't keep up with orders.

 

When these new fangled tricycle U/C planes made their way into the scene, we still insisted that the stall warning sound before the wheels touched down ( Mains only of course.)This pitching porpoising thing is nor difficult. I managed it in a C -182 after thousands of hours, but I was occupied with finding a ditch I knew was somewhere on the strip. I wasn't sure that I had crossed over it before touching down so deliberately left my touchdown point rather late. There's always an excuse, but I sure was preoccupied , as I was unable to visually verify something which I thought would be easy, from the air. Nev

Have you ever read "STICK AND RUDDER" by Wolfgang Langweische Nev ?? writtten in the 1930s I think. . . .

 

When nose wheel U/C aircraft turned up, I gather, towards the end of Wolfgang's flying career ( ! ) his advice in the book was to forget about three point landinsg, and "Slam them onto the ground on all three wheels, . . and then SLAM the brakes on". . . . ! Must've been referring to Mitchell twin Bombers ?

 

Phil

 

 

[Phil Perry]

When I was training in a C152 my CFI was obsessed with ensuring I did a good flare and then holding the nosewheel off for as long as possible, then keeping the yoke right back till stopped outside the clubhouse. I don't hold it right back when taxiing back now but always keep some up elevator especially with rough fields to reduce stress on the nosewheel.I've bounced too but always off the main gear. If it's a decent bounce I generally hold the flare & use a bit of throttle to get it to settle for the proper landing. I've never had a 3rd one because after the second it is full throttle & go around. That's the plan any way because the second one has always been a goodie.

Not a bad thing to teach at an early stage KG, "Weak" nosewheel assemblies have already been cited in other posts on this thread, . . .can't BEEF theem up too much as BEEF = Weight, and more weight leads to slimmer crews, AND less fuel to MTOW. . . . Some of the fields I've dropped into recently, whilst having nice, flat runways, quite often don't expend as much effort on the grass aprons and parking areas NOR taxiways, and you have to be pretty careful you move about really gingerly at some of them. . . .

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I must say that I have seen more nosewheel-equipped aircraft on their back lately, than I have seen taildraggers on their back. What the ????!!!!...............................Maj...

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

Shhh ..... Maj, they may all start coming back to draggers then no taxiway will be safe!

 

 

[kaz3g]

.....<big snip>....Have you ever read "STICK AND RUDDER" by Wolfgang Langweische Nev ?? writtten in the 1930s I think. . . .

 

When nose wheel U/C aircraft turned up, I gather, towards the end of Wolfgang's flying career ( ! ) his advice in the book was to forget about three point landinsg, and "Slam them onto the ground on all three wheels, . . and then SLAM the brakes on". . . . ! Must've been referring to Mitchell twin Bombers ?

 

Phil

No mistaking what he thought of tricycles, is there?

 

Kaz

 

 

[metalman]

I must say that I have seen more nosewheel-equipped aircraft on their back lately, than I have seen taildraggers on their back. What the ????!!!!...............................Maj...

Yeh Maj SSSHHHHH, if everyone starts flying taildraggers I'll have to book ahead for the Eurofox!

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Well not everyone will be able to handle taildraggers as you know, so it won't get that busy out there overnight. Will just be more broken aeroplanes out there as they try thats all................................................Maj...

 

 

[Phil Perry]

No mistaking what he thought of tricycles, is there?Kaz

No there certainly isn't Kaz. . . . . but,. . .in the light of what we now KNOW. . . . . and what a lot of us now FLY. . . . were Wolfie still alive today,. . . I think he might just, perhaps, maybe, revise his thoughts a little on that particular aspect of his original comments on trike undercarriage landings, Don't you ? with the recent developments and knowledge that the machines are made from metal which is fag packet paper thin, and wheels and their attachments ( apparently) designed by people who used to work for a toy car factory in Hong Kong . . and regulated by people whom ( again - apparently ) have no idea what they are talking about. . . Otherwise,. . .I must have missed your point somewhere along the line. . .

 

Maybe, in an ideal world,. . . training AIRCRAFT designers ought to start off with a triangular steel frame made from 300 x 120 Mil RSJs, then stick some BIG castors on the corners, then build an airframe of some sort on the top. ( Great for landing sideways in a crosswind. . . )

 

This way,. . .perhaps, Nose - First landings wouldn't matter a jot ??

 

JOCULAR ( No offence intended. . .)

 

Phil

 

 

[metalman]

The 180 cessnas tried castoring wheels for easier crosswind landing,,,,,never tried one but I have heard they're VERY exciting,,,

 

Back to the nose wheels, was watching a mate taxi an RV7a a tad to quickly on a less than nice hard surface,,,it was actually really awful seeing the nose leg shudder back and forwards ,I asked him if he had any feedback through the airframe that the noseleg was moving pretty violently ,nope couldn't feel a thing, this guy is a taildragger pilot so stick was back but he now taxis a bit slower in it,

 

 

[kaz3g]

Hi Phil

 

My comment was very tongue in cheek...I was suggesting the esteemed gentleman was NOT a fan of tricycles and preferred conventional gear. Hence the rather brutal handling practice.

 

Kaz