Accident Investigation

[Phil Perry]

Hi Guys + Gals. . .

 

I just read the Taree accident thread and couldn't comment as it had been closed. I Would be on e of the the first to commiserate with the family of the pilot concerned. I have lost a few friends in airctaft incidents,. . .as you do, if you are involved in it for long enough.

 

There were a couple of comments pointing to the age of the pilot concerned. . . . this is bollox, . . . we still have a licenced pilot over here who was the commander of a Fairey Swordfish Biplane, which, in the second world war torpedoed the Bismarck, and hit it's rudder, causing it to sail in a big circle until the British fleet assembeld and sunk it. He still flies his own private aircraft out of a field near London and is in his late eighties. . . . age is nothing to do with the equation, if you can still pass the PPL medical. . . .

 

A couple of posters were dead right, ( in my view anyway ) the age of the commander is totally irrelevant. end of.

 

What I really Don't understand, ( Perhaps someone can explain this to me. . . ) is the BIG difference between the UK and the Australian Governmental attitudes with reference to aircraft accident reporting and subsequent investigation.

 

In UK, EVERY accident,. . . which results in CREW INJURY is investigated. It doesn't matter WHAT the flying appliance you were using was. . . .General Aviation, or Microlight.

 

Every accident which results in an aircraft being destroyed . . . IS INVESTIGATED.

 

Every accident, where an aircraft is DAMAGED . . . has to be reported to the CAA, and if they think it is in any way unusual, or otherwise,. . they activate the A.A.I.B. this is part of the CAA ( Aircraft Accident Investigation Branch) which is renown throughout the world as one of the BEST in it's class, and leaves no stone unturned, until it finds a cause,. . .If at all possible.

 

Not many of our guys bother to look at your Aussie forums the way I do. . . ( Maybe it's because I flew there a lot. . . ! ) and they are GOBSMACKED when I tell them that your authorities don't investigate abso bloody lutely EVERYTHING which flies that has a crash, . . . .so that everyone else can be happy that the same thing won't happen to them. Maybe you lot all don't pay enough TAX. . . ? so that your Civil Aviation people can use that as an excuse to regard LSA people as pond life not worthy of supervision. . . .?

 

Well, . . . if your version of OUR guiding groups ( BMAA / LAA ) were as politically powerful in OZ, then . . .just maybe you might get some action.

 

Just an observation from an outsider. . . . no offence at all intended. . . . just a bit surprised that you have all sat back and allowed this bloody stupid and dangerous attitude to happen unabated. . . . . Who ae you going to vote for at the next A/V election. . . er,. . . whatever it is that you have to do with your weird voting system, that we just rejected in the UK ?? You are almost unique in your electoral system there by the way,. . . . I think there's only about two other banana republics on the planet who use the PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION bollox system that you have there. . . . where the LAST guy on the ticket gets the job. . . . ( My opinion only,. . . ) No wonder you can't elect somebody who'll do you some good. . . .

 

Phil

 

 

[dazza 38]

Hi Phil, in Australia, The ATSB investigates crashes. Not just aircraft, but also Transport (like trains) and Maritime. They pick & chose which accidents to investigate because of manpower and budget constraints.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

While I agree with much of your post, Phil, I will bite at the "banana republic" jibe. We like to give everyone a fair go. And a second chance. If our candidate is eliminated during the first count, we get a second go; our vote goes to our second choice, and so on. This complex system has led to our pretty bland political history, and apathy is an unfortunate by-product. Too many of our voters are easily led by a media dominated by the big end of town, but every so often we elect people with actual integrity.

 

 

[jamel]

I am led to believe that if we as recreational pilots wish to continue to fly cheaply ($185 per year rego) then this is the price we pay! If it was a General Aviation registered aircraft then there would be a hell of a hullabaloo and an investigation.

 

It is my contention that our association , RAAus could do a lot more regarding reporting to members re probable causes etc in a way that didn't leave it open to litigation if it so chose, but then again in recent times it hasn't even been able to get the registration of aircraft done correctly!!

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

I think there's only about two other banana republics on the planet who use the PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION bollox system that you have there. . . . where the LAST guy on the ticket gets the job. . . . ( My opinion only,. . . ) No wonder you can't elect somebody who'll do you some good. . . .Phil

I like it Phil, you're right. We should follow the glorious Westminster system where voting isn't compulsory so only the die-hard fanatics, radicals and anarchists ever bother to vote. One only has to visit good old Blighty to see how well it's working over there. If you want an accident crash investigation the formerly 'great' Britain might be a good subject ...

 

 

[Teckair]

Phil we pay plenty of tax its the way it is spent that is the problem. My understanding was our political system is based on one of yours, sure our governments are no good but which government is ???

 

 

[pmccarthy]

On the old days air safety was so important that we got all the necessary documentation for free. Updates would arrive in the mail every week, flight service units were there to help, there were no landing charges. Maybe the decision makers could still remember the war and the importance of aviation. Now, at the RAAus level, we are expendable and politically invisible.

 

 

[Blue Drifter]

The ATSB publish all of their investigations on their website. Even down to the boring level where the only thing that got a mild scare was the TCAS. For some reason the RA Aus don't publish the results of an investigation even when the ATSB give it to them. Your first comment also mentioned losing friends. I lost 2 good friends a while ago ( and they were good friends) Maybe if the RA Aus published that fact that it was almost dark when they took off it might slow some one else from doing the same thing. If you don't learn from history it is destined to repeat itself.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

If it is a matter of funding there are two ways to go. First is to mount a public campaign about all those crashes and deaths and the risk to the Genral public of a machine falling on their heads, which would get some political attention but would be a disaster for our hobby/business. Or we increase the RAAus fees by enough to cover proper investigation and legal advice. I reckon the cost of one hours flying (true cost including ownership) per year per member should do it.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Or we could form a registered trade union which would get us immediate political support at the highest level, but the trick would only work until September.

 

 

[cooperplace]

Hi Guys + Gals. . .. . I think there's only about two other banana republics on the planet who use the PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION bollox system that you have there. . . . where the LAST guy on the ticket gets the job. . . . ( My opinion only,. . . ) No wonder you can't elect somebody who'll do you some good. . . .

 

Phil

I read this post, thinking this guy's right, until I got to this bit, when it dawned that he's simply got no credibility.

 

 

[facthunter]

Pleasure is inversly proportional to the size of the beurocracy involved. UK is well known for the complexity of doing just about anything. We don't need to go any further down that road than the minimum. It's called "freeedom" and we should surrender it NOT!. Nev

 

 

[farri]

Hi Guys + Gals. . .You are almost unique in your electoral system there by the way,. . . . I think there's only about two other banana republics on the planet who use the PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION bollox system that you have there. . . . where the LAST guy on the ticket gets the job. . . . ( My opinion only,. . . ) No wonder you can't elect somebody who'll do you some good. . . .Phil

Phills opinion only and like ***holes, everyone got one!

 

Let`s stick to finding a better way of investigating accidents!

 

Frank.

 

 

[dutchroll]

Who ae you going to vote for at the next A/V election. . . er,. . . whatever it is that you have to do with your weird voting system, that we just rejected in the UK ?? You are almost unique in your electoral system there by the way,. . . . I think there's only about two other banana republics on the planet who use the PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION bollox system that you have there. . . . where the LAST guy on the ticket gets the job. . . . ( My opinion only,. . . ) No wonder you can't elect somebody who'll do you some good. . . .

Whoa! While it can have its quirks, that's not an accurate description of how our electoral system works. After every single election I've been around for, the losing side says "it sucks and we need to change it" or "the voters are morons" and the winning side says "Yay the people have spoken! The voters are fantastic!" and "Isn't our democratic process great?" Next time around the two sides simply swap places and reverse their views.

Proportional representation is used in Germany, Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden, Japan, Israel, New Zealand, Belgium and numerous other countries. Hardly "banana republics". Every democratic electoral process has its flaws (look no further than the USA where you're not even electing the President, rather you're just asking someone in the Electoral College to vote for him if it's not too much trouble, and they're under no obligation to actually do so!). And heck, take a look in your own backyard - right up until 1999 the UK had members sitting in Parliament with legislative voting rights based solely on their blood lines! If you came from good enough breeding stock, you didn't need to be elected by anyone!

 

Anyway, enough of politics.

 

We're a very large country where the tyrannies of distance, infrastructure, and logistics sometimes overcome our relatively tiny population and taxpayer base. Organisations like the ATSB have never had enough funding to investigate anything and everything but they do the best they can with what they've got, and we can vote Governments in and out until the cows come home but not a lot will change those facts.

 

I personally agree with you that the ATSB should, in an ideal world, investigate all aircraft accidents. Unfortunately though I don't live in an ideal world, at least not while I'm awake.

 

 

[Robert]

I love it when someone gets a conversation like this going puts a bit of action into the forum:smile:

 

 

[Yenn]

I don't know if Phil is right or wrong, but I do know that our politicians are a useless bunch. they don't know which way is up. Just look at for exaamlpe the boat people problem and Julian Assange. Both could be fixed if they used their heads.

 

It is better to go without accident investigation than to wake the idiot who could stop our flying

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I love it when someone gets a conversation like this going puts a bit of action into the forum:smile:

You see it fire up when someone like me in China comes along and says;

 

"You guys should come over here and see how real Democracy works..."

 

 

 

[kgwilson]

There were a couple of comments pointing to the age of the pilot concerned. . . . this is bollox, . . . we still have a licenced pilot over here who was the commander of a Fairey Swordfish Biplane, which, in the second world war torpedoed the Bismarck, and hit it's rudder, causing it to sail in a big circle until the British fleet assembeld and sunk it. He still flies his own private aircraft out of a field near London and is in his late eighties. . . . age is nothing to do with the equation, if you can still pass the PPL medical. . . .

A couple of posters were dead right, ( in my view anyway ) the age of the commander is totally irrelevant. end of.

 

Phil

My initial post on the Taree Fatality thread saying "it is believed the pilot is around 70 years of age" was only meant to inform as was the information relating to the aircraft. All media report the age of pilots or car drivers etc. How this can be construed as being judgemental I cannot understand. As it happens the media later reported the pilots age as 80. We have an 80 year old member of our club still flying & I will be 70 in only 7 years. Hopefully I will still be flying at 80.

 

The comment relating to the modifications had some people jumping to the conclusion that obviously meant the aircraft had a structural failure. Too many posters read something into a post that they want to believe not was actually said. This is the age old problem that the fingers are put into gear well before the brain is engaged.

 

 

[kgwilson]

Great thread drift, Accident Investigation to Political Systems. So my 2 cents. All proportional systems have their weaknesses but they do ensure that most political parties (and the people that voted for them) get some sort of representation rather than none for many minor parties in a "first past the post" system. I personally think though that voting being compulsory in Australia is undemocratic.

 

As to accident reporting, there have been a number of threads on this subject & I firmly believe that RA-Aus has a duty and a moral obligation to inform its' members of all findings relating to accidents major and minor. ATSB only seem to report on those that may have some political fallout or major public interest.

 

 

[kaz3g]

Hi Guys + Gals. . ......Just an observation from an outsider. . . . no offence at all intended. . . . just a bit surprised that you have all sat back and allowed this bloody stupid and dangerous attitude to happen unabated. . . . . Who ae you going to vote for at the next A/V election. . . er,. . . whatever it is that you have to do with your weird voting system, that we just rejected in the UK ?? You are almost unique in your electoral system there by the way,. . . . I think there's only about two other banana republics on the planet who use the PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION bollox system that you have there. . . . where the LAST guy on the ticket gets the job. . . . ( My opinion only,. . . ) No wonder you can't elect somebody who'll do you some good. . . .

 

Phil

Hi Phil

 

Ouch!!! I bet that hurt :-)

 

Others have presented a fair cross-section of responses and I too like a passionate (heated?) discussion.

 

But really, we have a system here that was foisted on us by you Brits when you still treated us mere cannon fodder for your wars and a place to send the black sheep from your aristocratice families. It's not that long ago that you sent the residents of your prison hulks here.

 

Our Australian Constitution is as much a creature of the British Parliament as it is of ours. Your ancestors saddled us with lots of things that today add to the complexity of our national governance -- including the states and the extraordinarily difficult process for changing the rules set down in 1901.

 

It's a tad ironic that today is Anzac Day in Australia. It gives us cause to remember the tens of thousands of Australians sacrificed by incompetent British commanders at Gallipoli and elsewhere. Our population then was less than 5 million but half our young men enlisted and one in six of them died. More than 10,000 at Paschendale alone http://www.ww1westernfront.gov.au/battlefields/passchendaele-october-1917.html

 

Anzac Day reminds us of how our troops, sailors and airmen fighting in Europe to defend the British "homeland" during WWII were not released by the British heads to defend their own country when it was so seriously threatened by the Japanese advance. It brings to mind the stand of our guys at Tobruk, holding Rommel's army at bay and preventing the Axis powers from reinforcing Europe and taking the Middle East oil fields from the south.

 

Oh, Australians took Tobruk and held it until relieved by the British who then lost it again. It was finally retaken by the Brits under Montgomery but he had 220,000 troops to do it with and even then it took a few goes before they succeeded.

 

So we are probably a tad touchy when criticisms are thrown around from abroad... But don't take it personally...no offence taken and none meant :-)

 

Kaz

 

 

[turboplanner]

Very well said Kaz.

 

For any one genuinely interested in why our RAA reporting is as it is, there are two or three quite large threads which explain this.

 

For those slagging off at ATSB and GA reporting, I'd suggest you actually take a look at the ATSB reports to see the volume and judge for yourself whether these people are just playing politics.

 

This is another very disappointing thread which has been allowed to generate into garbage.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Our Australian Constitution is as much a creature of the British Parliament as it is of ours. Your ancestors saddled us with lots of things that today add to the complexity of our national governance -- including the states and the extraordinarily difficult process for changing the rules set down in 1901.

Yeah you keep believing that, the real truth is change would bring about real threat to our "National 2 Party System" and that ain't going to happen anytime soon.

 

This is another very disappointing thread which has been allowed to generate into garbage.

Well now you know it's a garbage thread the answer is simple, avert your gaze, do not click on the thread again.

 

 

[dutchroll]

"De"generate into garbage!

 

Anyway, all accidents are recorded by the ATSB. Just not all are investigated. This is mentioned on the ATSB website which anyone can access, and it is openly admitted that resources are a factor, and that the focus is on fare-paying passenger aircraft.

 

 

[metalman]

What we need is a collection of old Ferris wheels , just toss one on the aircraft wreckage WHA-LA instant headlines, in depth investigation and aircraft manufacturers ducking for cover ,,,,,,,maybe we can vote on it, but only a first past the gate election, gotta keep it simple for us colonials ;-)

 

 

[Neil_S]

Hi Guys + Gals. . .

 

Just an observation from an outsider. . . . no offence at all intended. . . . just a bit surprised that you have all sat back and allowed this bloody stupid and dangerous attitude to happen unabated. . . . . Who ae you going to vote for at the next A/V election. . . er,. . . whatever it is that you have to do with your weird voting system, that we just rejected in the UK ?? You are almost unique in your electoral system there by the way,. . . . I think there's only about two other banana republics on the planet who use the PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION bollox system that you have there. . . . where the LAST guy on the ticket gets the job. . . . ( My opinion only,. . . ) No wonder you can't elect somebody who'll do you some good. . . .

 

Phil

Tut tut, now Phil. I lived in the UK for 40 years and the electoral system in the UK is just as much a load of bollocks, if not more so, than in Australia. What hacks me off here is that you HAVE to go and spoil your ballot paper even when you think all the candidates are *ssholes - otherwise they fine you. Show me a country with a perfect electoral system and I will move there. All the parties in the UK think the first past the post system is crap......until they get elected by it, then suddenly they forget how bad it is.....

 

And wouldn't it be nice to have the resources and money to do things properly. However one of our state politicians recently found out the hard way that this is fairytale land. While in opposition he promised to "implement ALL the recommendations of the BushFire Commission Report". Then his party got elected, and he realized he would have to triple everyone's taxes to fund putting all powerlines underground as per the recommendations. So his options were :-

 

a) triple taxes, implement all the recommendations, and guarantee being voted out at the next election

 

b) leave taxes alone, implement SOME of the recommendations that could be afforded, and hopefully remain elected (ie do the same as the previous party....)

 

Guess which he chose. A good lesson in reality.

 

Keep smiling.

 

Neil