Accident Investigation

[turboplanner]

I used the ignore button and it gave you an informative!

 

The next step from your assessment is to get an amendment through the Commonwealth Parliament to require an investigation on every aircraft crash which produces a fatality or major injury.

 

I'm not sure of the Labor Party system, and not 100% sure of the current Liberal system, but it would probably involve a submission being made to your local Liberal Branch, for them to adopt it, preferably while you stayed in the room with a big stick in your hand, which would send it to the State Conference who hopefully would adopt it and send it as a request to the Federal Parliamentary members, who if they agreed would raise it in the Parliament. A long trail I know, but most new laws pushed by the Liberal Party follow this path, and you would be looking at about a year to 18 months.

 

 

[Admin]

I used the ignore button and it gave you an informative!.

Ignoring a user is done in your settings...not in posts...you obviously clicked the Informative button in the range of "Likes" that are displayed on the bottom right of posts.

To ignore a user, go in to your site settings and select "People you ignore" to add a user

 

 

[dazza 38]

Well, me Blighty bound friend,,,,you certainly know how to get a thread going,,,I like most of us would like to see alot of things done differently here but it seems we have an infestation of politicians that are mainly interested in getting re-elected,,,which I guess is the same in most western countries,,enough of that!!!The accident reporting here is crap, and in light of countries like NZ that seem to have got that bit a little more right than us it only makes it appear more ridiculous! As for the funds ,,well ,we spend billions of bucks on stupid stuff here, the average person (especially those of us in business) just cannot believe some of the garbage our elected ones chuck money at ,so really that lack of funds would more correctly be misused funds .

I really can't see an answer to some of the issues ,even CASA is completely immune to government pressure, maybe the ATSB out of the goodness of their hearts would have a little look at some of our stacks,,maybe!

 

The bottom line for us is to build a culture of safety at our airfields, I sat next to a guy last night who had around 16000 hours, for me to "have a word with him about his flying" would be pretty damn hard( not that he was doing anything wrong ,just an illustration ) and for him to even consider my input would be humbling beyond belief, BUT ,we have to be responsible for our peers as it effects us all, it costs nothing to ask a mate if he's had a look at the WX radar as he's heading for the apron, it is good airmanship to stand back quietly while another pilot is pre-flighting(you may learn something, or get to teach something) it cost nothing to ask another pilot to pre flight your plane occasionally, might be amazed at what they find, the point is some accidents can't be avoided but a lot could be , in fact three stacks that resulted in pilots I knew in the last year could have been avoided if someone had said something ,but instead we got funerals.

 

thats my input like it ,lump it or use the ignore button

As a example of a shear waste of public funds- There was a pedestrian crossing in Sydney painted to represent a rainbow for the Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras. At a cost of a whopping $110 000. Funded by the Sydney city council. Then a few weeks go the crossing was paved over, another expense. Things like this happen all over Australia . No wonder there is not enough money to fund departments like the ATSB.

 

 

[Bandit12]

Jaba, I think the age issue is so important that you should split it away from this thread and give it its own space untainted from any suggestion age applied here.

Agreed, Mods this topic would be much better by itself. I'll dig a little deeper into cognitive decline due to ageing (most of my recent cognitive work has been at the other end with young uns) and see if there is any interesting information to add.

 

 

[ahlocks]

Agreed, Mods this topic would be much better by itself.

Split and new topic started here;

http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/accident-investigation-is-age-a-factor.62969/

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

It gives us cause to remember the tens of thousands of Australians sacrificed by incompetent British commanders at Gallipoli and elsewhere.

It may well have been true elsewhere but it certainly wasn't at Gallipoli - that operation was planned by Australian officers (including Major General William Bridges - founder of the Royal Military College at Duntroon) and the casualties were well below what was expected.

 

36 Days by Hugh Dolan debunks a lot of widely held myths such as the landings being at dawn.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[turboplanner]

I'll read the book.

 

What's your opinion of Les Carlyon's version John?

 

 

[dazza 38]

FWIW approx. 8000 Australians died at Gallipoli and nearly 60 000 died on the western front.

 

Just as well British General Douglas Haig wasn't in charge at Gallipoli as well as the Western front. Otherwise a lot more soldiers would have died. I'm surprised someone didn't shoot the idiot in the back of the head, like what happened to other high ranking officers in later wars who didn't have a clue.

 

 

[kaz3g]

The years go by and we forget that Gallipoli was the brain child of Winston Churchill, First Sea Lord, and the Supreme Commander was British as always. In this case it was General Sir Ian Hamilton.

 

http://www.militaryhistorytours.com.au/site/About_Gallipoli.asp

 

Initially Churchill, who at the time was First Lord of the Admiralty, convinced the British and French governments that the naval passageway could be taken by a naval force unsupported by soldiers on the ground. On 18 March 1915, Admiral de Robeck led a flotilla of ships into the gap between Cape Heles and Kum Kale. The Turkish artillery set up in the previous century to dominate the narrow (2 kilometres wide) stretch of water was not quite up to the task. The small Turkish minelayer Nusrat, however, was. The allied flotilla bombarded the shore batteries, and they soon fell silent, the mines, however, did their deadly work. The Turks, never ones to give up, soon used what shore based artillery they could to drive the ships back. de Robeck his nose bloodied withdrew.

 

Churchill too was also not one to give up. The man whose intransigence was to save his nation 40 years on, convinced others to have another go but this time with land forces. The nearest land forces were those of the Dominions, Australia and New Zealand. They were training in Egypt; to that point no decision had been made as to wether they would be used to defend the Suez Canal and Egypt from a thrust by the Ottoman Empire through Palestine, or to be sent to France.

 

25 April 1915 saw the infantry divisions of the Australian and New Zealand expeditionary forces landing on the west of the Gallipoli peninsula to realise Churchill's dream. Commanded by the British General Sir Ian Hamilton, there were no native born or even Australian or New Zealand residents with a rank higher than Brigadier General. They landed in the darkness just before dawn and forced their way inland against little resistance, the ridges were steep; the Turks did not expect a landing there. They were, however facing the Turkish 19th Division commanded by the most brilliant of all commanders in this field Mustafa Kemal. It was not long before the movement stopped, and the kind of stalemate that reigned in Europe prevailed. Our troops had reached the first un-broken ridge line, about 2 kilometres inland, and there they would stay.

 

Sixty thousand Australians fought there, 26,000 were casualties and 8000 died.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

I'll read the book.

It doesn't fit comfortably with some of the current beliefs about the campaign but, if you have an open mind, I think (hope) that you will enjoy it

 

What's your opinion of Les Carlyon's version John?

If its the one I'm thinking of they have very different approaches. Carlyon's is basically about recounting the stories of the diggers on the ground. Dolan's is more of an investigation into the planning of the operation. Both valid approaches and both worth reading.

The ANZAC fatalities were less then 10% of the total count for the campaign (well over 100,000). And before I get flamed, I am not, in any way, trying to downplay the significance or tragedy of 8000+ Aussi or 2000+ Kiwi deaths

 

Before I anger the Mods by drifting the thread further, the Gallipoli campaign also marked the operational use of arguably the first modern style aircraft carrier HMS Ark Royal whose aircraft were used to survey the Turkish positions before the landings. So there is an aviation connection to this discussion ;-)

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Bandit12]

I've given you a "Creative" because I love how you've brought the conversation back into aviation

 

 

[Phil Perry]

The years go by and we forget that Gallipoli was the brain child of Winston Churchill, First Sea Lord, and the Supreme Commander was British as always. In this case it was General Sir Ian Hamilton.http://www.militaryhistorytours.com.au/site/About_Gallipoli.asp

 

Initially Churchill, who at the time was First Lord of the Admiralty, convinced the British and French governments that the naval passageway could be taken by a naval force unsupported by soldiers on the ground. On 18 March 1915, Admiral de Robeck led a flotilla of ships into the gap between Cape Heles and Kum Kale. The Turkish artillery set up in the previous century to dominate the narrow (2 kilometres wide) stretch of water was not quite up to the task. The small Turkish minelayer Nusrat, however, was. The allied flotilla bombarded the shore batteries, and they soon fell silent, the mines, however, did their deadly work. The Turks, never ones to give up, soon used what shore based artillery they could to drive the ships back. de Robeck his nose bloodied withdrew.

 

Churchill too was also not one to give up. The man whose intransigence was to save his nation 40 years on, convinced others to have another go but this time with land forces. The nearest land forces were those of the Dominions, Australia and New Zealand. They were training in Egypt; to that point no decision had been made as to wether they would be used to defend the Suez Canal and Egypt from a thrust by the Ottoman Empire through Palestine, or to be sent to France.

 

25 April 1915 saw the infantry divisions of the Australian and New Zealand expeditionary forces landing on the west of the Gallipoli peninsula to realise Churchill's dream. Commanded by the British General Sir Ian Hamilton, there were no native born or even Australian or New Zealand residents with a rank higher than Brigadier General. They landed in the darkness just before dawn and forced their way inland against little resistance, the ridges were steep; the Turks did not expect a landing there. They were, however facing the Turkish 19th Division commanded by the most brilliant of all commanders in this field Mustafa Kemal. It was not long before the movement stopped, and the kind of stalemate that reigned in Europe prevailed. Our troops had reached the first un-broken ridge line, about 2 kilometres inland, and there they would stay.

 

Sixty thousand Australians fought there, 26,000 were casualties and 8000 died.

 

Kaz

The Quotation "LIONS LED BY DONKEYS" is very appropriate with lots of policies formulated by Mr. Winston Churchill I think you'll find,. . . . I have a lot of friends in Ireland who have dark memories of the "Black and Tans" a collection of motley British Army personnel, who must have been recruited according to their level of stupid sadism, one friend of mine told me that her Father was stopped by these "People" and asked where he was going at the time of night it was,. . .He replied that he was going home from his job at a factory,. . .which, just incidentally made munitions for the British and Irish Armies. . . they then beat him so badly he died of his injuries two days thereafter,. . . NO ACTION WAS TAKEN against the soldiers who perpetrated this act. . . there are a lot more of these tales. Winston was an absolute ( in the view of many historians ) Arzehole, who did a lot worse, and fought tooth and nail against votes for Women also in his earlier political career. He is only remembered (narrowly) for his performance during the second world war, even though some of his gaffes during THAT conflict also cost the lives of thousands of military personnel unnecessarily, in ill devised schemes. And PLEASE don't get me started on Alexander Haig. . . . . that particular arrogant plutocratic barstard should have been drowned at birth, in which happy event, there would have been a lot more nice blokes who lived to raise families in Australia as well as England. . . .This idiot believed firmly that if we had 20,000 soldiers, and threw them willy nilly against 15,000 of the other side's soldiers, then the arithmetic was GOOD, and we could not fail to prevail. . . . . !

 

Just my opinion, I don't mind if you disagree. . . . One thing I am REALLY ANGRY ABOUT is that The authorities are planning to put a picture of Winston Churchill on the back of the planned new five pound note, to be released shortly. . . . with one of his infamous WW2 quotes printed thereon. the rationale being that "Not enough children in this country are aware of what a wonderful person he was, and how the country is a far far better place thanks to him. . . . ." gimme a break. . . . . . Most of the children at inner city schools in the UK at the moment speak Urdu, Hindi, Gujurati, Bengali, Somali, Pashtun, Albanian, Bulgarian, and probably a lot more that I've forgotten, who do not have English as their first language. . . . .

 

So the smart money would be on the fact that British, stroke Commonweath History isn't going to mean a lot to these kids. . . . and they won't learn it in our "Trendy" schools, as they teach strange subjects here, and don't bother with history much, as it's all in the past. . . . . .

 

When they release this ridiculous FIVER. . ., I will scan one and upload a pic, so you can have it reprinted a plenty and hung in YOUR dunny as well as mine.

 

Phil

 

 

[Phil Perry]

One of Winston's saving graces,. . . . was that, at the time, there was no one else around to run the country, . . .Chamberlain was a waste of space, so that,. . .if I were to say anything positive about the man,. . . it would be, that if it hadn't been for him and his arrogance, political guile, and forthright energy then we could well be conducting this conversation in a slightly differerent First Language,. . . . .

 

Guten Nacht.

 

Nuff said.

 

Phil

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

..... we could well be conducting this conversation in a slightly differerent First Language,. . . . .Guten Nacht.

 

Nuff said.

 

Phil

Brings to mind the proposal put forth some years ago -

 

Having chosen English as the preferred language in the EEC the European

 

Parliament has commissioned a feasibility study of ways to improve efficiency

 

in communications between Government departments.

 

European officials have often pointed out that English spelling is unnecessarily

 

difficult - or example, cough, plough, rough, through and thorough. What is

 

clearly needed is a phased programme of changes to iron out these anomalies.

 

The programme would, of course, be administered by a committee staff at top

 

level by participating nations.

 

In the first year, for example, the committee would suggest using 's' instead of

 

the soft 'c'. Sertainly, sivil servants in all sities would resieve this news with joy.

 

Then the hard 'c' could be replaced by 'k' sinse both letters are pronounsed alike.

 

Not only would this klear up konfusion in the minds of klerikal workers, but

 

typewriters kould be made with one less letter.

 

There would be growing enthusiasm when in the sekond year, it kould be

 

announsed that the troublesome 'ph' would henseforth be written 'f'. This would

 

make words like 'fotograf' twenty per sent shorter in print.

 

In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reash

 

the stage where more komplikated shanges are possible. Governments would

 

enkourage the removal of double letters which have always been a deterent to

 

akurate speling.

 

We woukd al agre that the horible mes of silent 'e's in the languag is disgrasful.

 

Therefor we kould drop thes and kontinu to read and writ as though nothing had

 

hapend. By this tim it would be four years sins the skem began and peopl would

 

be reseptiv to steps sutsh as replasing 'th' by 'z'. Perhaps zen ze funktion of 'w'

 

kould be taken on by 'v', vitsh is, after al, half a 'w'. Shortly after zis, ze

 

unesesary 'o' kould be dropd from vords kontaining 'ou'. Similar arguments vud

 

of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters.

 

Kontinuing zis proses yer after yer, ve vud eventuli hav a reli sensibl riten styl.

 

After tventi yers zer vud be no mor trubls, difikultis and evrivun vud fin it ezi tu

 

understand ech ozer. Ze drems of ze Guvermnt vud finali hav kum tru.

 

Danke schon und guten nacht

 

 

[djpacro]

The ATSB policy on how they decide which accidents to investigate has just been put here http://www.atsb.gov.au/infocus/posts/2013/focusing-our-investigative-resources.aspx

 

 

[kaz3g]

The ATSB policy on how they decide which accidents to investigate has just been put here http://www.atsb.gov.au/infocus/posts/2013/focusing-our-investigative-resources.aspx

...we direct our investigative resources to accidents and incidents involving operations that have mature safety systems and will likely uncover a safety benefit or improvement for industry and the travelling public.

 

Perhaps they are telling us something?.

 

Kaz

 

 

[VFR Pilot]

I think they are saying that we don't have proper safety systems and they don't give a rats a.... about recreational pilots.

 

 

[kaz3g]

I think they are saying that we don't have proper safety systems and they don't give a rats a.... about recreational pilots.

Looking at your avatar, I'd say you can "bank" on it.

 

Kaz

 

 

[farri]

I think they are saying that we don't have proper safety systems and they don't give a rats a.... about recreational pilots.

I don`t see it that way at all. It appears to me the ATSB has a fairly heavy work load.

 

If, as RAA members, we want a report on every accident involving an RAA registered aircraft, then it should be the responsibility of the RAA to investigate, then pass the report on to every RAA member.

 

"In aviation, the ATSB aims to investigate most accidents and serious occurrences. That said, we focus our attention on the safety of the travelling public. As a result, we generally do not investigate private activities such as sport and recreational flying where there is a voluntary acceptance of a higher level of risk. Those sectors of aviation are largely self-administering and have their own investigation capabilities, working with the police and coroners in the case of fatal accidents.

 

"While the ATSB can’t investigate every accident or incident reported to us, we are still conducting around 130 investigations at any given time."

 

Frank.

 

 

[M61A1]

...we direct our investigative resources to accidents and incidents involving operations that have mature safety systems and will likely uncover a safety benefit or improvement for industry and the travelling public.Perhaps they are telling us something?.

 

Kaz

I think that the red bit may be the key.

[kaz3g]

I think so, too, M61A1.

 

Like CASA, their priority is the travelling public and they spend their limited funds accordingly. We, RAAus, need to mature in our approach to safety in all its facets.

 

We need a dedicated Safety Officer to promote safety in training and general ops, to work with other professional staff on investigations and to prepare and publish reports of them, to participate in disciplinary proceedings, and to record data in a manner that assists the fundamental task of promoting safety.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

I think so, too, M61A1.Like CASA, their priority is the travelling public and they spend their limited funds accordingly. We, RAAus, need to mature in our approach to safety in all its facets.

 

We need a dedicated Safety Officer to promote safety in training and general ops, to work with other professional staff on investigations and to prepare and publish reports of them, to participate in disciplinary proceedings, and to record data in a manner that assists the fundamental task of promoting safety.

 

Kaz

... and surely we would all be prepared to pay a little more to fund this.

 

 

[facthunter]

Obviously better to direct your efforts to an operation over large cities with 300 to 600 people on it than one passenger out of sight. The hard facts are the cost and if you introduce extra people to find things , they will do just that (sometimes even IF they are NOT real) they will do so to justify their position.

 

No window dressing please. I have dedicated much of my efforts in aviation to safety issues that produce REAL results. A full investigation process would easily add 500 dollars the your subscription when you consider the vastness of our country and the resources you would have to have available on site reasonably quickly. It still might not significantly alter outcomes. All (well most) pilots think "those things only happen to other pilots. It won't happen to me".. Since we operate all over Australia in all conditions , perhaps the standard might be raised. I don't believe in penalties. I believe in information (education). as the answer. Nev

 

 

[rhysmcc]

It would be good to see a working party/sub committee setup to explore how RA-AUS could design/implement an investigations team, how they could interact with ATSB, CASA, Police, etc and the costs that would be involved annually. Whether such positions could be worked into the current RA-AUS setup, maybe as Regional Coordinators? Also spending time running safety forums, compliance (with the aim of educating rather then revenue raising) checks etc.

 

 

[facthunter]

Perhaps some University might assist in that as a project. Nev