Area frequency query

[Jabiru Phil]

I read somewhere recently that it is advisable to broadcast your position, height, intentions etc when changing to a new area frequency.

 

Made some safety sense to me. I always listen out to the appropriate channel and change frequently on X country trips I.e SA to Qld.

 

I always broadcast the above information on ctaf when anywhere near an ALA or airport.

 

A couple of questions I suppose would be of help. Do GA aircraft broadcast to centre when changing frequencies? (not talking about passenger flights) I have that covered as they give a 30 mile call.

 

Would it be allowable to give a broadcast on the area channel of my position and intentions?

 

I am aware that frivolous broadcasting is very frowned upon, if that is the term, but giving your details when entering the next area would I believe let other aircraft in the vicinity be aware of your position etc.

 

Do GA aircraft monitor the ctaf constantly below 10 thousand feet? Or just the 10 mile radius? Assuming dual radios.

 

I frequently fly past rpt airports and get a bit nervios when a SAAB is descending near me outside of the 10 mile ctaf boundary.

 

Hope this makes sense.

 

Phil.

 

 

[greybeard]

As far as I know there is no requirement to broadcast to centre ( VFR ) when changing frequencies.

 

I'd maybe do an all stations call advising position and intentions depending upon circumstances. An issue with the broadcast is someone nearby may be on CTAF and/or just changing frequency and may miss the call.

 

That said I tend to do broadcast as I come up to a significant feature ( not many in WA ;) ) when doing long xcountry flights.

 

If you're concerned about getting a SAAB as a new hood ornament then by all means give an all stations broadcast. Don't forget that most IFR know where they are relative to a nav aid and may not be full on with a position report relative to a ground feature. If that makes sense.

 

[edit] fully agree with your first paragraph

 

 

[turboplanner]

Given a recent thread where someone was even suggesting using British radio procedures, and others put forward procedures superseded up to three times, it might pay you to do some study on this (me too by the way). There was a South Australian company producing a Radio CD which gave all the mandatory broadcasts and the correct phrases. You may have to first find out who is selling it, then whether it is fully up to date.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

The old requirement was to do as suggested above. That is make radio calls on changes of area (FIA) boundaries including location height tracking etc etc.

 

this was changed in I guess maybe early 2000s and dropped as a requirement. This was followed not long after with specific requests for people to actually stop the old procedures and change to the new ones. It was not just a request but basically a demand. Although they did say that if there was a specific reason for making the broadcast at some specific time then it was fair enough.

 

Statistically they looked at our and the USA stats (where they already didnt make these calls)and concluded that those locations we are talking about we're so far removed from other traffic and the risks of collision so low that the calls were pointless.

 

The reason being that as frequencies were becoming more congested the radio calls just cluttered up the band. The calls blocked or over transmitted other stations whose calls were more appropriate and did little or nothing for actual safety. At the boundaries traffic can be on two different frequencies and as rare as it to have two aircraft in the same bit of sky out there they may be on different frequencies anyway.

 

So not only do the rules say not to transmit the calls but ATC don't want you to either and it has a noted detrimental effect and no statistical positive effect.

 

I wouldnt bother buying a CD - the rate that Air Services Changes the rules it would be out of date by the time it arrived in the mail. All the correct stuff is in the ERSA or the VFR guide which can be down loaded free from the air services website.

 

 

[frank marriott]

Listen but don't broadcast unless there is a likelyhood of conflict. Too much chatter is bad airmanship (and it is not uncommon)

 

If you have a transponder then centre will pass you as an unidentified 1200 squawk to nearby IFR traffic [i have had centre call "aircraft sqawking 1200 at (location) and when you answer, pass opposing IFR traffic even though we were separated by 1000ft] The area operators area very helpful but are not interested in what you are having for lunch or a running commentary of you flight.

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

Thanks Frank and all.

 

My main concern is really not RPT but all others that could be in my vicinity without both of us knowing.

 

I give an example that happened to me once. I was overflying Cobar and gave the usual calls. a little time later a Piper aircraft called on CTAF to say he was inbound descending from the north east at 10 miles. obviously he never heard my overhead call and we were on a possible collision course. After my call to him he said he would maintain height until I passed under him.

 

If I had travelled a couple of more miles I would not have heard his call until I had passed him.

 

This got me wondering about the lack of awareness in near isolated areas and the solution if any. Hence my post

 

Thanks for the replies.

 

Phil.

 

 

[skyfox99]

What Frank has to say is how I go about my radio calls.

 

Keep your ears and eyes open and only do a call if you deem necessary.

 

 

[Yenn]

If you monitor area frequency and only use CTAF frequency when within about 15 miles, you will get a picture of who may be in your area. Stay VFR but keep up to date on the heavy stuff, which can cover the ground rather faster than we do. I fly out of a strip using 126.7, but YGLA is 15 miles away on 118.8 and area covers the whole lot, so it results in much frequency changing. The area frequency gives a good picture as the RPTs call just before and just after using 118.8. The CTAF only tells me what I can easily see. The YGLA 118.8 frequency gives me all local RPT traffic, which is my greatest danger.

 

If you have a transponder the RPTs will see you.

 

 

[Neville75]

My CFI teaches his students to broadcast a short "all stations" broadcast on the area frequency upon entering a new boundary to alert any other a/c in the vicinity. That was his main feedback on passing me for my PPL flight test. Makes sense to me, doesn't need to block the frequency and when operating "clear of cloud" particularly below hemispherical levels requirement may provide some additional situational awareness.

 

Isn't the reason to have centre frequency selected is to enhance your understanding of the traffic around you. Surely it is irrelevant whether it is an IFR or VFR aircraft you are about to have a mid air collision with? My safety and that of my VFR passengers is just as important as those sitting in an aircraft under the IFR.

 

Nev

 

 

[frank marriott]

We have to live with what we have left.

 

"All stations" calls went out when the full SAR option for VFR traffic was stopped circa Dick Smith period in CASA. It was mandatory for all CHTR and above traffic to be full SAR and optional for private OPS, VFR or IFR. That is history and it can be argued which was best but there is no point - we have to live with what we have now.

 

If everyone uses the current method, it seems to work. There will be different opinions about what SHOULD happen but in the "user pays" enviorment we live in then I believe we have to accept it and get on with life, it aint gunner go back.

 

 

[jetjr]

There is a big difference here between clogging frequency and what Phil is talking about. I too have had near misses in more remote areas because many think theres no one around. Relying on hearing somone else is flawed where there may be no need for call in a hour of twos flight. I think pilots get used to radio silence and asume theres no one around

 

If the radio is quiet, make a brief call especialy around larger airstrips.

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

Jet

 

Yes I agree and do broadcast near ALL strips but on ctaf only. Do you or do or suggest doing the same on area freq?

 

Agree it can be very quiet radio wise on x country trips and as you say if the other pilots have the same thoughts that you have the sky to yourself, there lies the possible conflict.

 

I assume that just because there is no broadcasting on a freq does not mean that the controller is not busy on another freq. by this I mean that they maybe monitoring multiple frequencies.

 

So back to my original post, can I broadcast when entering an area freq?

 

Phil

 

 

[Thirsty]

I make periodic broadcasts on the area freq I happen to be monitoring when travelling xc. I don't see how it hurts to provide more information to those flying around out there. I am mindful of keeping it short if the radio is busy but it's usually fairly quiet so a no brainer IMO.

 

 

[frank marriott]

Phil

 

There is nothing to prevent you, but more important to fly Hemispherical levels, listening and lookout. Being mindful that a lot of light traffic without capacity to listen on more then one freq. travel on 126.7 only (hopefully below 5000)

 

 

[turboplanner]

Would it be so hard for Jabiru Phil just to look up the current regulations, and get it 100% right, rather than just rely on what someone "does", or worse, take the advice of someone posting superseded information because they hadn't kept up their recency.

 

 

[biggles]

JetYes I agree and do broadcast near ALL strips but on ctaf only. Do you or do or suggest doing the same on area freq?

Agree it can be very quiet radio wise on x country trips and as you say if the other pilots have the same thoughts that you have the sky to yourself, there lies the possible conflict.

 

I assume that just because there is no broadcasting on a freq does not mean that the controller is not busy on another freq. by this I mean that they maybe monitoring multiple frequencies.

 

So back to my original post, can I broadcast when entering an area freq?

 

Phil

 

I

Yes Phil , I believe that it is entirely up to the PIC as to when to make a broadcast , on whatever frequency is appropriate . On many occasions , when flying in out back Qld/ NSW , I have called Brisbane centre to verify the integrity of the comm ,and have received a prompt and clear reply stating that ...... " yes it is a bit quite on this frequency today " . I also make a habit of making an 'all stations' broadcast as I progress along the track ,which may ,or may not , be within the same area frequency. I give my approx position , altitude and heading . Sometimes I get a reply other times not . Appropriate use of the radio is one of the tools at our disposal to ensure our safety ,and the safety of others . Unfortunately not everyone monitors the correct frequency whether it be ctaf or area freq and can often be heard chatting on 123.45 . Yes , they may have another comm but then again they may not .

 

Bob

 

 

[Jaba-who]

We seem to be talking about multiple different situations here and fusing them into a one practice to suit all.

 

These are completely different situations

 

CTAF calls

 

FIA Boundary calls

 

Random calls within boundaries

 

Some are suggesting or wanting to do what are currently legal requirements anyway. ie CTAF calls prior to and within 10 miles of a non-towered airstrip.

 

Some are wanting do other things that are sort of fair enough but not required (but are common practice by RPT. ie calls on FIA as well as CTAF prior to entry into CTAF areas)

 

Some are wanting to do things (and been taught apparently ) that (while not strictly "illegal") are advised against doing. (ie Making calls at boundaries, making random calls at random times etc)

 

I can't echo TBs advice strongly enough. The rules are all available in publications by Air Services available on the internet for free, they are pretty straightforward and supersede all the discussion on the thread.

 

 

[REastwood]

When flying IFR and you are coming up to an FIA boundary you are given the next frequency by ATC, you change to that frequency and give a report. So aircraft flying IFR with only one radio will be monitoring the FIA frequency only. When they approach an airfield they are given permission to change to the CTAF and make the required calls but at some stage they must change back to the FIA freq. especially if ATC cannot be contacted on the ground.

 

So if you are flying VFR and you can only listen to one frequency, then if above 5000' monitor the FIA, you do not need to broadcast at the boundaries but you will hear any IFR traffic as they come into the area. Also remember that they will change from the CTAF back to the FIA at some stage over an airfield so if they do not respond immediately on the CTAF try again in a minute or two.

 

Of course if you can monitor two frequencies then monitor the FIA and CTAF, listen and make a call/broadcast if there is a reasonable chance of conflict.

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

Would it be allowable to give a broadcast on the area channel of my position and intentions

 

Thanks Frank

 

Do GA aircraft monitor the ctaf constantly below 10 thousand feet? Or just the 10 mile radius? Assuming dual radios.

 

REastwood

 

Good explanation

 

Thanks for that info.

 

Would it be so hard for Jabiru Phil just to look up the current regulations, and get it 100% right, rather than just rely on what someone "does", or worse, take the advice of someone posting superseded information because they hadn't kept up their recency.

 

Point me to the page if you know

 

I think I spelt out my concerns in English. What does this forum do if you can't ask a question.

 

I shall await a response

 

Phil

 

 

[greybeard]

Maybe a civil response actually quoting the relevant regs and/or a link would be useful instead of RTFM!

 

Those who are so up with the relevant rules and regs would obviously find it a trivial exercise to do this as they know what they are.

 

Yes, we could all look up the rules and regs but every now and then imparting a little knowledge or reference instead of sniping wouldn't hurt and might make this a nicer forum to frequent and gain some knowledge. But we all get our jollies in different ways.

 

You deserved a better response Phil.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Would it be so hard for Jabiru Phil just to look up the current regulations, and get it 100% right, rather than just rely on what someone "does", or worse, take the advice of someone posting superseded information because they hadn't kept up their recency.Point me to the page if you know

 

I think I spelt out my concerns in English. What does this forum do if you can't ask a question.

 

I shall await a response

 

Phil

You'll be waiting because, although I know I have to bring myself up to date anyway, I haven't got the time to do it right now.

 

It unfortunately is not a matter of one page. To be sure, it's probably two or three hours work.

 

For example, I've learnt not to just trust the Visual Flight Guide, and there is always the situation where one CASA document is up to date and contradicts another which has yet to be updated.

 

For people flying every day this is not an issue, they might screw up and be told on the radio, or there's talk around the office and they get seamlessly updated with the many changes.

 

For people like you and I, who fly for recreation it's a nightmare, and the hardest part I find is unlearning the previous procedure.

 

In my opinion CASA are contributing to an unsafe situation by having multiple streams of regulation information, "guides" which don't have the complete information, and sometimes conflicting advice which makes it so hard finding answers to the sort of question you raised.

 

I grew up with full reporting, so you did make the calls you refer to and you could pretty much place every active aircraft in your sector and know when an RPT was headed your way, but we are at the other extreme now, and I'm of much the same opinion as you. I fail to see have someone broadcasting into a fifteen minute silence could be cluttering up the airwaves. If not anything else it used to confirm that your radio was still transmitting and receiving.

 

If you are lucky, your instructor will outline the nesting of CASA documents, so at least you have a place to start, and documents to search and tick off, even if it does take a long time, but the days of memorising Air Leg and Radio like we used to do are gone. You instructor will also stress going through those documents to get information on updates, and to keep yourself current. RAA seems to fall down in really keeping up the tuition beyond circuit flying and basic aircraft handling which is why we have so many Radio, Nav, Performance and Operations and Planning questions with so many varying responses.

 

Of course there is no reason you can't ask a question - but the problem is as PIC, if you get a Dash 8 through the right ear by doing the wrong thing you can't claim you read the procedure on a forum, and the reason for the accident could well be incorrect information on the forum.

 

In just reading this thread, let alone a few of the other radio threads, you will see advice to use superseded procedures, and totally opposing advice. The reason I reiterated hitting the books is that none of us other than daily flyers would really be able to separate correct information from incorrect.

 

 

[Compulsion]

I can tell you that a new directive has been written and will be released shortly to clarify the rules. I was talking to Mal from CASA Saturday about this. I too find it very confusing Phil.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Like Tubz, I grew up in aviation with 'full reporting' flights. That was ended by some form of quasi 'cost benefit' analysis many years ago.

 

I was taught (many years ago) by my CFI that even though 'full reporting' for VFR flights was no longer supported, broadcasting your position and intentions at every FIA boundary was prudent, because if nothing else it left your information on a recording tape and if you ever went missing there would be an audit trail of your position reporting for the SAR process.

 

Unless the rules have now changed to prohibit such a practice, I will continue to do so on a long cross country. I am talking VFR here. IFR is irrelevant in this discussion that Phil has started.

 

 

[kaz3g]

In the meantime, have a look at the excellent information set out for you at

 

http://flysafe.raa.asn.au/comms/procedure.html

 

After discharging your obligations to monitor relevant CTAF and report as appropriate, monitor the FIA below 5000 (or 126.7... Not my choice). Listen for conflicts and call if necessary.

 

Above 5000, you must have a radio and you must monitor the FIA. While not mandatory for VFR, a position, height and intentions call entering and leaving the cruising level Is appreciated by Flightwatch (but don't overload a busy controller in the approaches to capital cities). In more remote areas it can be comforting to have made that contact and use the flight following service.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

You'll be waiting because, although I know I have to bring myself up to date anyway, I haven't got the time to do it right now.It unfortunately is not a matter of one page. To be sure, it's probably two or three hours work.

For example, I've learnt not to just trust the Visual Flight Guide, and there is always the situation where one CASA document is up to date and contradicts another which has yet to be updated.

 

For people flying every day this is not an issue, they might screw up and be told on the radio, or there's talk around the office and they get seamlessly updated with the many

 

For people like you and I, who fly for recreation it's a nightmare, and the hardest part I find is unlearning the previous procedure.

 

In my opinion CASA are contributing to an unsafe situation by having multiple streams of regulation information, "guides" which don't have the complete information, and sometimes conflicting advice which makes it so hard finding answers to the sort of question you raised.

 

I grew up with full reporting, so you did make the calls you refer to and you could pretty much place every active aircraft in your sector and know when an RPT was headed your way, but we are at the other extreme now, and I'm of much the same opinion as you. I fail to see have someone broadcasting into a fifteen minute silence could be cluttering up the airwaves. If not anything else it used to confirm that your radio was still transmitting and receiving.

 

If you are lucky, your instructor will outline the nesting of CASA documents, so at least you have a place to start, and documents to search and tick off, even if it does take a long time, but the days of memorising Air Leg and Radio like we used to do are gone. You instructor will also stress going through those documents to get information on updates, and to keep yourself current. RAA seems to fall down in really keeping up the tuition beyond circuit flying and basic aircraft handling which is why we have so many Radio, Nav, Performance and Operations and Planning questions with so many varying responses.

 

Of course there is no reason you can't ask a question - but the problem is as PIC, if you get a Dash 8 through the right ear by doing the wrong thing you can't claim you read the procedure on a forum, and the reason for the accident could well be incorrect information on the forum.

 

In just reading this thread, let alone a few of the other radio threads, you will see advice to use superseded procedures, and totally opposing advice. The reason I reiterated hitting the books is that none of us other than daily flyers would really be able to separate correct information from incorrect.

Turbo,

 

Explanation accepted.

 

Kaz and David,

 

That's the answer I was Asking. I will now broadcast at frq. boundarys until told otherwise either by centre or CASA.

 

Comp,

 

Looking forward to the new publication which hopefully will clarify the do's and dont's

 

Leaving for a trip to North West WA next week so should get some feed back if I am a nuisance.

 

Phil.