Dangerous teaching

[Camel]

I was shocked to see some one teaching this and putting it on you tube, read the comments, I do not approve but thought it was worth sharing. Also it is a motor Glider.

 

 

 

[Guest Pontius Pilot]

Well, it's certainly not for the novice but don't jump on the outrage bus too quickly and castigate the guys because they are turning back at such low altitude.

 

It is important to remember it is a motor glider and this more than amply demonstrated by the glide angle (or lack of descent rate) in this clip. Look at the speed and see that it doesn't waver and is safe throughout the manoeuvre. In other words, they carry out a 180 degree turn in an almost level attitude, while maintaining a safe speed. Personally, I can't see too much wrong in that.

 

Now, having said that, this is not something we're going to see in higher wing-loading RA & GA aircraft which, typically, need at least 800' (ish) to carry out the same manoeuvre. But the gliding fraternity is different and I've done my fair share of turnbacks from low altitudes following cable breaks etc. The video is indeed shocking to us used to having a fan on the front but the glider boys will probably have a different view

 

Just so there's no misunderstanding; NO, I wouldn't be doing this in a GA aircraft.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Depends upon your view I guess, IMHO practise teardrop turns are essential EFTO training. But clearly not done at this altitude initially until you know the manoeuver well and have practised it in that particular aircraft; in other words this pilot knew he was doing and what to expect. But feel free to disagree of course!

 

 

[eightyknots]

Depends upon your view I guess, IMHO practise teardrop turns are essential EFTO training. But clearly not done at this altitude initially until you know the manoeuver well and have practised it in that particular aircraft; in other words this pilot knew he was doing and what to expect. But feel free to disagree of course!

People will find it hard to disagree with you Gnarly because there is no disagree button, only an agree button

 

 

[Jabiru7252]

I only have 300 hours since 1981 so I'll leave the comments to those more experienced.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

It's a perfectly executed manoeuvre and the height really has nothing to do with it because it's a matter of the performance of the particular aircraft.

 

Being a very efficient motorglider that aircraft could turn back with a height loss of only 150ft, in a medium performance ultralight you might need three times that much or even more, in a C172 you might need at least 800ft and in a Learjet, even though it's efficient it has a high sink rate, so you would want 5000ft, for example, But as long as you had the right amount of height for the particular type you were flying the view out the front would be much the same except steeper from the aircraft with a lesser glide angle and shallower in the higher performance types.

 

I think teaching turn-backs is an essential part of training, so that the student gets to learn the safe height (i.e. glide angle) from which they can turn back to that nice big smooth airstrip instead of having to continue ahead into the rough paddock or scrub, and perhaps wreck the plane and/or themselves in the process.

 

 

[Admin]

People will find it hard to disagree with you Gnarly because there is no disagree button, only an agree button

We had that but some people disagreed with it

 

 

[Garry Morgan]

500 'is normal for a glider pre solo cable break practice , it is a matter of knowing you aircraft and practice it to know what you can do with it. It helps a lot when it happends. Been there done that more than once.

 

 

[rankamateur]

We had that but some people disagreed with it

A well discussed point of disagreement is just as valuable a learning tool as a rousing agreement. I went to school in the public system and remember that it isn't done to tell people they are wrong in front of their peers lest we damage their self esteem, so I accept that we are ill-equipped to responsibly use a Dis-agree button.

 

 

[Camel]

Here is another video he posted which I watched first, The fact it is a motor glider is a big difference.

 

 

 

[facthunter]

There wouldn't be any point in having a discussion if only those who agree participate in what would then NOT be a discussion.

 

In a turn back situation there are so many variables that make an often critical manoeuver, become a "don't do it or you will be sorry". That truism is generally correct as many unsuccessful attempts show. The consequences of not getting it right are pretty severe (often fatal) whereas continuing ahead with moderate turns to avoid major obstacles (and into wind) and maintaining control is a more life assuring course of action, in aircraft such as we fly.

 

Doing another circuit from low level in a glider is achievable so part circuits are easier. A tear drop return done right (WHEN THE AIRCRAFT"S PERFORMANCE AND THE CIRCUMSTANCES PERMIT). by definition, can be achieved.

 

A low performance ( poor glide ANGLE) aircraft that hasn't achieved a height that permits a turn through 180 degrees plus say 30 AT A HIGH BANK ANGLE, and another bracketing alignment turn to realign with the runway hasn't a hope.

 

IF the decision isn't made rapidly the chances are reduced also, because you are getting yourself into a less favourable position as you delay.

 

IF you make the turn back decision, and it is the wrong one, you have rolled all your dice. Many aircraft lose control in the manoeuver.

 

The aircraft is performing a downwind landing , on or off the runway,which is harder to judge and it you muck it up you are travelling at 2 X the wind speed faster than you would have been landing straight ahead . Nev

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

The fact it is a motor glider is a big difference.

Apart from the fact it looses less height in the turn than a Jabiru does I'm not seeing the difference myself? As HIC said, works in all aircraft, just varying height lost.

 

 

[metalman]

It's foolish to assume that every aeroplane can do every manoeuvre simply because someone has done in their particular type! There are dead pilots and PAX from doing aerobatics in aircraft that aren't designed or built for it, there a dead pilots and PAX from night flying in an unsuitable aircraft,,,just as the turn back has killed plenty of people, and that is the reason I wouldn't be trying it !

 

I've seen plenty of footage of pilots practicing turn backs ,I was even taught it in a C172 over a 2000m strip from 500 agl( do the math and you'll see how ridculous it is), but unless its a normal operation as it is in the glider fraternity don't bother ,when an engine stops you WILL delay as the plane starts to lose height, when the brain kicks into emergency mode your skill levels will drop and this is the environment that you'd like to do a high bank angle 220deg turn close to the ground with NO options ,no alternatives and NO chance of a stall recovery.

 

Try it at height , shut the throttle, count to say 4 seconds then turn and watch the altimeter, remember you need room to do the turn 180deg the line up with the "strip" another 30deg with a turn the opposite way , see if it can be done then imagine doing it with a high stress level ,

 

 

[metalman]

Apart from the fact it looses less height in the turn than a Jabiru does I'm not seeing the difference myself? As HIC said, works in all aircraft, just varying height lost.

The height loss IS the difference! If you contact the earth before you make the turn that is a bad thing!

 

 

[facthunter]

The glider is a very different animal. L/D is everything and when it get good the smallest air currents (vertical) can sustain flight. We can't apply those techniques to what we fly which are often anything but efficient gliders. Most don't get better figures that 7 or 8 . Nev

 

 

[dodo]

GFA teach that you have a plan for a rope break (or power loss if a motor glider). It would go something like this:

 

if the rope breaks we will land straight ahead;

 

if we are too high for that, we will turn 60 degrees right and land along the shore of the lake;

 

if we are too high for that, we will turn 120 degrees left and land along that shore of the lake;

 

if we are above 300 feet, we will turn back.

 

So that video looked pretty normal to me. My instructor pulled a simulated rope break on me on about day three or four, and we turned back from 350 feet with lots of room to spare.

 

I wouldn't try it in a Jabiru (or similar)

 

dodo

 

 

[Yenn]

The next fatal turnback in a motorised glider will not be the first. I lost a friend that way. With their big wingspan they can dig a wing into the ground even when they appear to be high enough to turn.

 

 

[metalman]

Watch the video again , as soon as they're off the ground they are setting up for the turnback by making a right turn, this will help with lining up again, if you think about it they only just get it on the strip ,without the right turn after takeoff I doubt they would've had the room to make it in, not really a fair representation of a turn back situation, hope it doesn't encourage anyone to try it, but still pilots die trying so I guess it'll happen again!

 

 

[turboplanner]

I think we've had two or three die since the subject came up last.

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

A well discussed point of disagreement is just as valuable a learning tool as a rousing agreement. I went to school in the public system and remember that it isn't done to tell people they are wrong in front of their peers lest we damage their self esteem, so I accept that we are ill-equipped to responsibly use a Dis-agree button.

Sadly in life everything is now geared to 'the lowest common denominator'. I would encourage people to explore the boundaries of their skill level and learn to fly an aircraft at their maximum potential (under the guidance of a suitable mentor of course). If you have never been to 'the edge', how do you know where it is? A turn back may not be for everyone, but it can sure play a part in developing knowledge to keep you safe in the future.

I would love to know how many of those killed in a turn back had explored this flight dynamic previously, my bet is none of them. If they had they would have taken the 'controlled crash straight ahead' option. As Bob Hoover once said "fly the thing as far into the crash as possible".

 

 

[nomadpete]

As mentioned above, You don't get to go solo on a glider in Australia until you have demonstrated a 180 degree turnback at low altitude. Note that this must be done in the context of the performance of the particular glider, your instructor is right behind you, and the whole decision making process is as important as the actual maneuver. By the way it gets the adrenalin pumping when you do it. Part of the preflight checks include listing your rope break options (as dodo said). I would hope that we all recite our options for EFATO just before each flight. That way the correct action comes naturally when stuff goes pear shaped.

 

 

[Downunder]

If turning back, do you turn into the wind (assuming there's a degree of crosswind)?

 

 

[farri]

I think we've had two or three die since the subject came up last.

...........and it will continue to happen to those who do not fully understand the performance of the aircraft they are flying, the fact that atmospheric conditions are ever changing,therefore, the peformance of the aircraft changes and their own ability to controll the aircraft in the particular situation occuring at the time.

 

If you have never been to 'the edge', how do you know where it is? A turn back may not be for everyone, but it can sure play a part in developing knowledge to keep you safe in the future.".

Agree!!! The challenge is in finding where the edge is! Unfortunate, some go beyond it.

 

Frank.

 

 

[facthunter]

Turning into the wind will blow you back closer to where you want to be with runway realignement. IF you land before reaching the runway ( Off Field) you are much better having the max headwind component at touchdown. Nev

 

 

[poteroo]

If turning back, do you turn into the wind (assuming there's a degree of crosswind)?

Your logical direction is to turn into wind - important if the area you have to get onto is tight, and/or, rough. If the most open country is downwind of the runway - head there, and accept a higher ground speed at touchdown. At worst you'll use a bit more distance but not impact obstacles.

 

happy days,