Im feeling like Michel de Nostredame today....my prediction

[Teckair]

Good point Rob. If that is what was meant then apologies to John except I'd never be so defeatist as to say anything is beyond repair.

It sounds like we will be broke when legal action takes place, anybody who bought an Ibis would be not happy and you could imagine they would have a strong case. Sometimes it is easier to start again than repair some thing.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

It sounds like we will be broke when legal action takes place......... Sometimes it is easier to start again than repair some thing.

True enough if legal action can get at the Organisation's funds but I well remember the super-quick exit of everyone from the LAA (Lightweight Aircraft Assn) in Melbourne in about 1982 when we all found out that we could be personally liable for something that any member did, if some third party sued. Members of other clubs quickly followed our example, as did members of a gliding club or two IIRC.

 

And that's when we first employed legal eagles to work out what was to be done and their answer was that the clubs had to be Incorporated and is why the AUF started up and remained as AUF Inc. So what's changed that gives the grubbers access to our funds all of a sudden?

 

 

[Teckair]

True enough if legal action can get at the Organisation's funds but I well remember the super-quick exit of everyone from the LAA (Lightweight Aircraft Assn) in Melbourne in about 1982 when we all found out that we could be personally liable for something that any member did, if some third party sued. Members of other clubs quickly followed our example, as did members of a gliding club or two IIRC.And that's when we first employed legal eagles to work out what was to be done and their answer was that the clubs had to be Incorporated and is why the AUF started up and remained as AUF Inc. So what's changed that gives the grubbers access to our funds all of a sudden?

I don't know much about this stuff but if being incorporated stopped us from being sued why would we need insurance?

 

 

[rankamateur]

Being incorporated doesn't stop the organisation being sued or stripped of it's reserves and assets by a successful claimant, BUT it does protect the assets of the individual members of the organisation. Nothing can save us from the hole that poor governance digs, refusing to answer the questions of concerned members doesn't make the problem go away any more than unkept promises to make improvements. We have no idea how deep the hole is when the problems have been moved off the books, but the legal system can ask questions that won't be satisfied by stonewalling!

 

 

[winsor68]

If an "Incorporated" organization breaks the rules of incorporation I would imagine that any protection offered under those rules would be void. In this case who is held liable?

 

 

[rankamateur]

If an individual commits a criminal offence like fraud while acting in a capacity within an incorporated organisation, incoproration does nothing to protect that individual from prosecution under the law but any liability caused by that individual won't be compensated by selling up the assets of the ordinary members, that is the critical issue.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Being incorporated doesn't stop the organisation being sued or stripped of it's reserves and assets by a successful claimant, BUT it does protect the assets of the individual members of the organisation. Nothing can save us from the hole that poor governance digs, refusing to answer the questions of concerned members doesn't make the problem go away any more than unkept promises to make improvements. We have no idea how deep the hole is when the problems have been moved off the books, but the legal system can ask questions that won't be satisfied by stonewalling!

I did mention previously that I'd been advised that lawsuits simply jumped the Incorporated Association and went straight through to the members, and I said I'd contact some people involved in cases I know about and get some answers.

 

I haven't progressed very far but do have one answer involving a Public Relations company taking on an Association, and they used the simple expedient of sueing an official personally, since the Association Funds had been kept low. The other two occasions involved the Victorian Government sueing Associations, and in both cases, it looks to me that the lawsuit was against the official (s) and not the Association. Neatly solves an problem, and would give claimants against RAA plenty of asset reserves to sue.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

.... that the lawsuit was against the official (s) and not the Association. Neatly solves an problem, and would give claimants against RAA plenty of asset reserves to sue.

Would that work?

 

How could the claimant claim funds from the Association if they were suing the individual - or in other words how could a person who has been successfully sued use the Association's funds to pay what had been awarded against them?

 

 

[turboplanner]

We are talking about a situation where Association funds have been exhausted and there is still a line of claims pending.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Just to inject some reality here - this was a dream of Andy's.

 

We know we don't know the financial status of RAA because people are working off tyhe books or with two sets of books without letting the owners know.

 

We do not know what the present financial status is - good or bad

 

We do not know what the insurance status is - claims against PI Insurance instead of PL Insurance being correct or incorrect

 

We do not know what the PL Insurance coverage is, or if there is a limit to the number of claims

 

We do not know what the Contingent Liabilities are (PL claims etc), if any, or how many or over what time frame

 

We don't know what the status is with the four CASA audit action, or what their next concerns might be (although ramp checking pilot training could be an indicator)

 

So we don't know if there is a problem, or not.

 

Not a proud position for the owners of an Association to be in when they had the meeting at Natfly to make some powerful changes to get this information, and manage the outcome.

 

Just something to think about rather than going round and round.

 

 

[Pete Greed]

Minimising risk and asset protection, should be at the forefront of any well run community based organisation. These are issues challenging many not-for-profit organisations in Australia as they have grown from basic accounting practice to now being required to operate under corporate law. The current reported confusion regarding the governance of RAAus, especially in light of the motion put at the Feb. special general meeting, requesting an update on what was to be achieved by the next (recently held) general meeting, is a real issue for concern. Folks like it or not we have progressed well beyond the old committee of management (footy club) model. The separation of governance, (the board), and operations, (the staff), needs to be attended to immediately. Perhaps it is - but if so, where is the evidence? It is certainly not being communicated to the membership.

 

And for those who think board strategic planning is just philosophic bullshit, and managing is all about implementing operational systems initiated and designed by others, take a good hard look at the results.

 

That is why we have professional staff paid to implement the strategic plan. (Bugger - I think I just inferred we don't have one, so that may not work, how did we do it before, worked for a while - I think. We may have to put some executive board members into operations - that shouldn't compromise governance, should it?)

 

I think I could be loosing my recreational flyer's sense of fun - but then again it may be just the cynicism of old age.

 

 

[facthunter]

If you are not cynical with some advancing age you must have spent most of your life on another planet. Nev

 

 

[nomadpete]

If you are not cynical with some advancing age you must have spent most of your life on another planet. Nev

That is what makes a true 'grumpy old man'

Well, it worked for me.

 

 

[facthunter]

You are "normal' then. Grumpy is not interchangeable with cynical, nor would it be the only manifestation of cynicism. Nev

 

 

[nomadpete]

You are "normal' then. Grumpy is not interchangeable with cynical, nor would it be the only manifestation of cynicism. Nev

Now you're really splitting hairs. Or am I just being Cynical?

 

 

[facthunter]

Just comment on this occasion. Nev

 

 

[Pete Greed]

Cynicism (contemporary)

 

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

"In organisations, cynicism manifests itself as a general or specific attitude, characterised by frustration, hopelessness, disillusionment and distrust in regard to economic or governmental organisations, managers and/or other aspects of work".

 

Could I claim to be a grumpy old cynic in contemporary terms Nev? :)

 

 

[Admin]

 

 

[nomadpete]

OK. Sorry about the drift.

 

Does anybody else have any cynical predictions that they can support with evidence?

 

I have been watching this space as advised, and so far there has been no announcement of any of Andy's predictions coming to fuition.

 

 

[turboplanner]

You'll have to wait for the clap of thunder, the shower of fairy dust and Andy in the Tutu with the wand.

 

 

[zodiac3813]

I note that the new GM has a background as a Museum Director/Manager.... let's hope he doesn't have to re-visit that aspect of his career with RA-Aus!

 

 

[facthunter]

Well at the moment we have a lot of "static exhibits". Nev

 

 

[zodiac3813]

For sure, Nev. We have completed our Skyranger Swift build, sent the documentation off on 26/4/13 and didn't even get an acknowlegement that it had been received... we hear and read lots about renewals, but little about new aircraft applications! I just hope they are not getting shoved aside to enable the backlog of renewals to be addressed. That would be quite unfair from my slightly biased perspective!

 

 

[zodiac3813]

Spot on FT. And it's not at all surprising when you consider the cost of getting into the air these days.When I started recreational flying in the 1970s it was a cheap pastime. I had been racing karts but then got into business and just didn't have the time to prep the karts between weekend races so I turned to my other latent interest, flying. I got into it by learning to hangglide and even during training it was about half the cost of entering and competing in karting events. And then I got into trikes. I chose to build my own, but even so a state-of-the-art one at the time, with wing, cost about the same as a average new club kart and kit. I mention karts because that's a good cost-comparison of where our sport should be.

 

Studies done in the US over many years have provided a good indication of benchmark figures that folks are willing to pay for their recreational vehicles and it shouldn't be any surprise to hear that the average price of a jet-ski/PWC accurately straddles the average recreational vehicle budget - some Companies employ smart marketers ...

 

So if we're going to stand any real hope of expanding our numbers rather than standing by and allowing our organisation to be used for simply catering to the more than averagely wealthy ex-GA failed medical types, then we need a far bigger offering of new aircraft priced within the recreational vehicle budget which is around $20K, and not much over that, perhaps $25K tops. What do we have now in that range? Some X-Airs and Skyrangers just scrape in if you do a lot of scrounging during the build, not many others in the two seaters and precious few in the single seaters as well.

I'm afraid our Skyranger build, with much attention to budget, still came in around 45K (using a second-hand engine)...

 

 

[Stearman]

For sure, Nev. We have completed our Skyranger Swift build, sent the documentation off on 26/4/13 and didn't even get an acknowlegement that it had been received... we hear and read lots about renewals, but little about new aircraft applications! I just hope they are not getting shoved aside to enable the backlog of renewals to be addressed. That would be quite unfair from my slightly biased perspective!

Know how you feel Zodiac,

 

Raaus received paperwork 23/4/13 for new registration of an aircraft that has been bought to cross hire to a flying school which is currently not operating due to aircraft registration issues with their own aircraft.

 

Raaus are aware this school is non-operational.

 

Raaus has been made aware of where this aircraft is to be used.

 

Have had confirmation 7/5/13 that all the paperwork is complete but still no registration.

 

At this rate the school will go broke before anything happens with this rego. Just because the school is not training does not mean the bills stop coming in.