Latest Jab chat

[fly_tornado]

So who's looking forward to getting their dual engine endorsement in the Jabitwin?

 

 

[turboplanner]

Do you remember when cars used to rust out?

OK - one answer, and one answer only, then I'll get back to something more productive. - I'd suggest you start to back up these one liners of yours

 

Yes I do, and I have an intimate knowledge of where and why, NOT so we could work out ways to make them rust faster, but because customers wanted to store their vehicles in the open.

 

I'll give you a brief history on what some of the truck manufacturers did.

 

International Harvester Australia Ltd invested a huge amount of money to try to reduce rust in cabs, trying to press and fold cabs to eliminate as much as possible capillary action, which produced the first signs of rust.

 

If we'd been nutty enough to think that by making them rust faster we could sell more, we could have spot welded plates to form double skin all over the place and the cabs would

 

have fallen off.

 

This produced an improvement, and then we found that by prepainting the joined panels, and sealing the raw edges with waterproof tape, we could extend the life even further.

 

General Motors at it's Dandenong Plant did this also, but still there was rust evident within a few years.

 

So both companies invested very substantial amounts of money in Electrophoretic Deposition, which involved doing all the above, then cleaning the raw steel cabs, and re-routing the production line chains into a separate area containing a huge bath of paint and using electric current to attract paint to all parts of the cab including the box sections.

 

This produced a further improvement, but by this time the General Motors Plant was no longer competitive and was shut down.

 

The Isuzu trucks from Japan had also adopted EPD by this time, but wherever there were overlapping panels, it was impossible to stop capillary action.

 

So they spent millions reducing the number of cab panels from 23 down to 11 by smart design, greatly reducing rust.

 

There were still rust prone areas, so they galvanised some panels, replaced other panels with thermoplastic, and invested in robotics to apply silicon very accurately in normally inaccessible places.

 

Today, those cabs will usually be rust free for the life of the truck.

 

I'd hate to think what that all cost our total industry - hundreds of billions of dollars probably.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Didn't the rust problem come from using thinner higher tensile steel?

 

 

[turboplanner]

I did say one answer, but no it didn't - steel just rusts.

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

So who's looking forward to getting their dual engine endorsement in the Jabitwin?

Will they count towards my RAA hours?

 

[Guernsey]

Will they count towards my RAA hours?

You could probably count for double the hours being two engines. .

Alan.

 

 

[facthunter]

There is such a thing as a design life, there HAS to be or you are expending money for nothing (as the maker). . Years ago the Volvo was the average longest kept car at 7 years. Plenty of "lesser"?(if they are) brands have lasted much longer than that. Today a car is a fashion item for the well off. The first owner probably keeps a "luxury" car for an average of say 2 years, or till model shape change whichever is the lesser. If you are a big success you don't drive last years model.

 

Servicing can be costly after a while and most sit in the street so are not protected from the elements.

 

Anyhow to suggest that anyone deliberately makes an aeroplane engine to fail is a bit incredible. They do however require inspection and servicing at a much higher level than a car.

 

Most race cars have the engines rebuilt after each major race. They are not WORN out but you strip them, inspect and rebuild for reliability, under race conditions.. I'm sure the red bull racers are much the same, or some aerobatic nitrous oxide boosted engines. One of the best Mercedes racers had a design life of around 3,000 kms.

 

The famous Merlins were around 200 hours between strip downs. It's horses for courses. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

There is such a thing as a design life, there HAS to be or you are expending money for nothing (as the maker). . Years ago the Volvo was the average longest kept car at 7 years. Plenty of "lesser"?(if they are) brands have lasted much longer than that. Today a car is a fashion item for the well off. The first owner probably keeps a "luxury" car for an average of say 2 years, or till model shape change whichever is the lesser. If you are a big success you don't drive last years model.Servicing can be costly after a while and most sit in the street so are not protected from the elements.

Anyhow to suggest that anyone deliberately makes an aeroplane engine to fail is a bit incredible. They do however require inspection and servicing at a much higher level than a car.

 

Most race cars have the engines rebuilt after each major race. They are not WORN out but you strip them, inspect and rebuild for reliability, under race conditions.. I'm sure the red bull racers are much the same, or some aerobatic nitrous oxide boosted engines. One of the best Mercedes racers had a design life of around 3,000 kms.

 

The famous Merlins were around 200 hours between strip downs. It's horses for courses. Nev

I'd call this the "life cycle in service", and I'd suggest none of those manufacturers were "designing in" short life.

 

The Australian Heavy Truck Industry has a customer expectation of about 1.2 kilometres to an in-frame rebuild. A few exceed this, but one major manufacturer has been desperately struggling to get back to where he was a few years ago - the bench setter at around 1.2, getting as far down as about 600,000 to 700,000 at one stage - many new people were employed, none of the with the job of shortening the life cycle.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Merlin was at the bleeding edge of technology in unusual circumstances, where as Jabiru are selling on price and making profit on service.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Godwin's Law in Recreational Aviation: the inevitable conclusion that any discussion about Jabiru engines will lead to a comparison of Jabiru to other engines designed in the 1930s or compared to engines made by Rolls Royce, Continental, Franklin or Lycoming but never Rotax.

 

 

[geoffreywh]

You know that for a fact? When I had a motorcycle shop I didn't make bugger all on servicing, The service dept supported ( and enhanced) the motorcycle sales. That's where the money was. I would bet that if Jabiru could give away servicing and keep all the folk in the workforce busy with new airframe and engine sales they would.....

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Compare the cost of a Jabiru to a VW engine, both are single carb, 2.2L pushrod boxer engines.

 

 

[facthunter]

Merlins were not at the edge of much . They were no where near the BMW and Mercedes aero engines for supercharging capability or much else. Most of their development was with the Schneider trophy racers, years before. The Poms were not ready for the war, and of course the germans engineered most things well. The first Spitfires had wooden props. They still flew biplanes in malta.

 

The point is though, that a military engine is extended till it's reliability is threatened. 2-300 hours is enough when the average life to being shot down in fighters was measured in the tens of hours.

 

.ft you don't like jabiru's . I gather that. I don't own one, but your obsessive bagging of them adds little to the argument and I imagine it pi$$e$ a few owners off. Nev

 

 

[facthunter]

VW compared to Jabiru. Are you serious? One is an extremely mass produced (Peoples car) engine produced all over the world where the production costs are pared to the bone and develops 36 hp in original form and the Jabiru is a low volume "certified" aero engine that suits nothing else to defray the cost probably never made more than 15,000 of them all over the whole time they have been built. There is a resemblance in appearance but the whole production technique for the two engines couldn't be further apart. Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

15000? 8000? both are made in china and finished off and assembled in the west. its been a while since that VW engine has been in a production vehicle so no price advantage from production volume.

 

 

[turboplanner]

It's like starting up a J.A.P. with a crank handle then finding you've forgotten to bring the piece of wire you normally ground the plug with.

 

 

[facthunter]

The Jabiru is made in China is it ft? That is news to me but lets just find out if it is. Actually I don't really care but you are telling the story. I would suggest the extruded sections might be supplied , but are you saying the CNC work is done there? In any case it is very low volume by most standards.

 

IF you dismantled a Jabiru and took the parts into an CNC shop and said I want you to make this for $15,000 do you think you would get many takers. ( even if you said the numbers will be xxx lots)

 

Is your life dedicated to bagging this product? I don't want to offend, but you don't show much evidence of actually having much real knowledge of the thing at all. Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I'm merely taking an opposing point of view to your. Jabiru are doing alright as far as I can tell.

 

 

[frank marriott]

The continued on and on same same comments of the likes of fly tornado and turboplaner get a bit sickening.

 

They are entitled to their opioion but I don't think it is helpful or informative to continue over and over. If the intemtion is to get rid of operators of Jab engines from contributing to this site it would appear that this has almost been achieved.

 

Over the 5 years I have been on this site I have noticed that the most informed and helpful members with a lot of experience on these engines are no longer posting. It is a pity but if they feel good , so be it.

 

Personally I don't get their posts on my computer except when I get to wonder why a thread has turned to crap and low and behold there it is again.

 

With the number of operators of these engines [like them or lothe them] - it is a big part of RAA. There are 12 operators of Jabs [that I know] within 50 miles of where I live and NONE will participate here - I wonder if that means anything?

 

 

[turboplanner]

Just in case you misunderstood, post #66 did not relate to a Jabiru.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I've re-read all my posts Frank, and here's an explanation; I don't think I've been unfair to Jabiru.

 

#15 Agree, but the human factor whispers in your ear "It SHOULD be good for the whole distance"[/Quote]

This was in response to a good suggestion by Facthunter; some transport operators use this policy and swear by it, saying “oil is the cheapest maintenance”

 

#19 I don't think so, becomes a bit of a helicopter with an engine failure

This was responding to a question from Motz; an earlier report said the props were fixed, so when one engine fails you get a yaw moment from the drag (helicopter effect)

 

#21 2 x 80 hp engines is not the same as 1 x 160 hp, and the weight and drag could be more, so it's a curious decision.

General comment – correct information

 

#39 Through bolts?

These were not mentioned, that’s a reasonable question given the large number of documented forced landings. I have several thousand dollars invested in this issue being fixed.

 

#44 Where did we go with carb ice - it's not the most sophisticated system in the world, and there's a massive gas expansion from ice.

This relates to through bolts and is a reasonable question following on from a previous discussion with Facthunter and others where I raised a possible cause as carb ice. If we can isolate the issue to something like this, not only does a fix become feasible, but it can most likely be retrofitted.

 

#47 If there's one thing that gets up my nose as a professional in the automotive/transport industry it's this ridiculous term "designed obsolescence"

With decades of employment in the industry I've never seen it, and it's an insult to the tens of thousands of people who fight to keep their jobs and their company afloat in an intensely competitive environment.

Apart from that the Trade Practices Act would most likely class that as Unconscionable Conduct.

FT seemed to be implying that Jabiru were practicing designed obsolescence; I defended Jabiru

 

#52 Explanation of industry response to rust

There was some more implication about designed obsolescence; I defended Jabiru

 

#54 I did say one answer, but no it didn't - steel just rusts.

More implication; I defended Jabiru

 

#58 I'd call this the "life cycle in service", and I'd suggest none of those manufacturers were "designing in" short life.

The Australian Heavy Truck Industry has a customer expectation of about 1.2 kilometres to an in-frame rebuild. A few exceed this, but one major manufacturer has been desperately struggling to get back to where he was a few years ago - the bench setter at around 1.2, getting as far down as about 600,000 to 700,000 at one stage - many new people were employed, none of the with the job of shortening the life cycle.

This was a response to Facthunter suggesting that manufacturers were not deliberately designing for short life.

 

#66 I’ve explained that had nothing to do with Jabiru.

 

[Powerin]

Warning...off-topic content follows....

 

I find off-topic posts a little bit like Douglas Adams' concept of "Zen Navigation"...."I rarely end up where I was intending to go, but often I end up somewhere that I needed to be."

 

Sometimes off-topic gets you where you need to be.

 

As an owner of an International Harvester truck who is greeted by a "EPD Electrophospheric Deposition Protection" sticker every time he opens the door, and having seen International trucks that don't have it, it is great to know the story behind it. Thanks Turbo!

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

After all of that development, and feeling very proud of ourselves, the CFA was out fighting fires with the newest trucks in the series, and came back with the plastic panels melted on several trucks.

 

So then we had a new problem to fix, and the programme included burning a 4x4 truck with engineers and senior managers from several States present, so we could work out what stages of fire we needed to finish up with an undamaged truck. The battle goes on.

 

 

[facthunter]

Sometimes the necessary changes are small and not that obvious. The auto industry is pretty amazing with it's quality control. ( Not perfect) but today new models, although you would expect the latest releases to have a lot of teething troubles, that is not so much the case as it used to be in the 70's, where the dealer pre delivery had a lot of work to do to get that car out the door and not break down. Changes would have to be made to early production models.. It only takes a piece of brass shaving in a fuel line to stop you. These cars today get assembled without removing paint from the engine bay. It's hard enough to put a bonnet on without doing that. No rounded off nuts either. ( They come later when it's serviced by the barbarians). Nev

 

 

[nong]

The roller lifter addition is a bit odd. ( It's NOT roller rocker) I can't see why they would spend lots of time and money developing something with so little return for effort? There are other places that would benefit from development with much better results.................... How about an alternator that puts out 20amp.( so you can runs glass panel and radio whilst taxying) ......Through bolts and studs that don't break............. A fuel system that has even distribution........... A sump that holds more oil.......... A longer dipstick ( not a screw in stick) ...The hollow pushrod and pressure fed rocker addition was such a good improvement ( It made the engine just like EVERY other one I ever saw)....I think that their priorities are misguided.........I could go on ( and often do)

A sump that holds more oil? This is not needed. The 2200 is quite happy to operate with only one litre in the sump, I have found. The sump capacity is more than plenty, so the extra weight and operating expense of a larger sump is not justified. The best way to get oil too hot, esp. with the 3300, is to put too much in. Yes, yes. Stick to manufacturers instructions.