Wagga Wagga accident

[ave8rr]

Any more re ultralight accident at Waga today?

 

 

[kaz3g]

http://www.theherald.com.au/story/1511219/light-plane-crash-at-wagga-airport/?cs=2452

 

Kaz

 

 

[Bluey]

Microlight crashed on landing. Eyewitness account stated that the pilot came in too close behind another trike that was or had just landed, hit wake turbulence and lost control hitting the runway quite hard. This caused the throttle to jam, I'm assuming from damage to the nose wheel on impact (I've heard of this happening in other previous events of very heavy landings). The trike has become airborne again. I surmise from eyewitness accounts that the pilot then cut the ignition switches and stalled at low level. A heavy impact followed rolling and righting off the trike. Pilot has suffered some serious injuries including a broken pelvis, internal bleeding and possible spinal injuries. The passenger seems ok. The pilot was later airlifted to a hospital in Melbourne where he remains in a serious condition.

 

The trike along with a large group of aircraft left yarrawonga on the first leg of the annual fly away organised by Peter McLean. Not a good start to what should have been a good trip. This event shows the dangers of encountering wake turbulence at low level.

 

Wishing the pilot and passenger a speedy recovery.

 

Bluey.

 

 

[Patrick Normoyle]

Wake turbulance I doubt it, maybe a disrupted airflow, but not wake Turb !

 

 

[nong]

The Megafaunas were arriving at the Wagga City Aero Club for lunch and overnight stay. There are tonight, thirty plus aircraft at the aero club and the wreckage is lying in the middle of the aerodrome. The aircraft was a trike carrying two people. The passenger was uninjured. The pilot was conscious at the scene. It looks like a spinal injury plus other serious skeletal damage.

 

The only qualified eye-witness I spoke to, indicated a go-around using full power. Climb was established and a steep turn at low level commenced. The turn, it is suggested, would have brought the machine back over the runway for another go. During the turn, the aircraft nosed down and impacted.

 

 

[Bluey]

We seem to have conflicting accounts. The information I've provided has come from one of the participants who was on final shortly after the incident. What you've described seems far worse and if true, both are lucky to be alive.

 

 

[Patrick Normoyle]

Our best wishes to them and their families, especially the pilot.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

The mind boggles. Glad they are both alive although not both ok it seems. No comments re the reports above, only that wake turbulence from a trik is a little far fetched.

 

cheers

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Well... As a trike flyer who has experienced exactly this scenario i can assure that what ever you want to call it its best described as being inside a washing machine with no ability to get to the on off switch.

 

You as a pilot have no control.......

 

Trikes may be small but they sure are draggy and as such air behind them is very disturbed.......anyone who has experienced this and survived it will have enormous respect for the distances between trikes when a group is landing.

 

Wing loading on a trike is pretty light, low weight to large surface area, and this means that what might be just a bump to a 3 axis aircraft may well end up putting a trike on its side.....if it happens to you then you wont be thinking "wake turbulence??" More likely several fbombs and a serious phew moment if you survive it.

 

I was lucky (as was my passenger) and got away with it, clearly this guy wasnt.

 

What ever name you want to give it is irrelevant, its a guaranteed killer!

 

Andy

 

 

[skeptic36]

http://www.trikepilot.com/magazine/read/wake-turbulence_609.html

[facthunter]

I wouldn't argue over the existence of wake turbulence. It would affect a smaller area than the enormous energy wake turbulence behind slow heavy transports and not last as long of course. All wake turbulence moves with the wind and ends up below the preceding aircraft. Delay ,fly above or upwind of it if it is anticipated. Sad for the people involved, and I hope the recovery is soon and complete. The Megafauna has been a great event over the years Nev

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Its a common assumption among fixed -wing pilots that, because they are light, trikes don't produce much wake turbulence. Hopefully trike pilots know better!

 

It was discussed sometime ago here http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/wake-turbulence-trikes.12557/

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Bluey]

As a trike pilot myself, I have to agree with the sentiments above. A trike especially the higher performance trikes available today will generate significant amounts of disturbed air including wake turbulence behind them. It may not persist for as long due to the lower all up weight and lower wing loading of trikes. However, the trike that landed ahead of the trike that crashed was a high performance unit with a 12.5 square metre wing. I once had a trike following me nearly 1km behind that strayed into my wake and was thrown violently around because of it. I once had the same happen to me and I nearly lost control. Make no mistake, an ultralight under the same conditions would also be seriously affected too.

 

Far too many three axis pilots do not take trikes seriously enough!

 

Bluey.

 

 

[facthunter]

Bluey, some might make assumptions but comments like what have posted here will help the education process.

 

Wake turbulence will persist longer in smooth air. I don't know that many U/L pilots think about wake turbulence.

 

Nev

 

 

[flyvulcan]

There must be something about Wagga and wake turbulence. In the early '90s, I flew out to Wagga to collect an Air Force mate who the day before had taken off in a Mooney 201 two minutes behind a C130 that was doing circuits. He found himself at 100', totally inverted. He lost all 100' during the roll up the right way and pancaked in almost wings level but with some nose down. The engine telescoped into the cockpit. His survival was somewhat miraculous and could be attributed to his training in recovery from unusual attitudes and the design of the 201. When I collected him the next day, I was shocked at his face which was almost unrecognisable. He had two black eyes and his face was all puffed up from where he hit the dash (with seat belts on). He showed me his body and legs which were all just black and blue. I remember that he was still shaking like a leaf a month after the event. Scary stuff but a brilliant job done by him to survive.

 

It doesn't matter whether its a Herc or a trike in front, with the aircraft we fly, wake turbulence is a consideration.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Fair enough. If you say its wake turbulence then I wont argue. Im probably one of the for mentioned fixed wing pilots that dont take trike wake turbulence seriously, although I do take the regulations on flying in close proximity to other aircraft, approaching the runway when its occupied by a proceeding aircraft, and general common sense really, so Ive never landed up the butt of any type of aircraft so im going to have to take your word for it. We are all aware of the rules regarding landing on an occupied runway aren't we?

 

 

[jamel]

May I say it is great to have a report on the probable cause of an accident from those who were close to the scene. It has certainly made me more aware to land and take off with a respectable gap to the preceding aircraft. It is so easy to close up in a group fly in scenario!

 

Thanks guys, it would be great if this happened all the time.

 

 

[Bluey]

I'm glad you take it all very seriously Motza and given the fact that we have met and spoken on a number of occasions I know you actually mean it. Lately, however I have had the unfortunate displeasure of coming across a few from both the ultralight community as well as the GA community who I don't think take it all very seriously. Maybe it's just because they saw that it was a little trike sharing the circuit with them I don't know?? but here are a few examples of incidents I've had happen to me in the last month.

 

Incident one: I've come in on final and landed, luckily on the grass as I usually do only to find as I've looked over my shoulder a Cesna doing a low pass at 100 feet. No radio calls whatsoever and then slowly climb out and head crosswind out to the coast. I know that I've missed seeing them as I've turned final (not hard to do when they come in low against a background of houses on runway 16 at Ywol) but this bloke then proceeded to ignore all radio calls I made to him for clarification.

 

Incident two: on my way back from a flight up north I encountered a pilot out of Wedderburn doing aerobatics in the circuit area next to the airfield. I made all the radio calls on approach and over the airfield at 3000 feet. I watched two aircraft taxi and take off below me both RV4. I spoke to the first pilot informing him of my presence above the airfield as I tracked towards the coast. All good - no problem. The second took off and did a wing over before departing downwind a few miles to the south to do aerobatics over Appin road. I radioed him letting him know I was heading his way with no response. Another radio call asking for a response went unanswered. The whole time I'm watching this bloke do loops and sharp turns that extended from about 2000 up to 3500 feet. A third radio call again unanswered. This time the pilot turns head on, same level and approaches at speed. Within one mile he climbs and proceeds to orbit me about 500 feet above my level.The whole time I'm thinking "what the f**k is this idiot doing? Not knowing what this clown was up to, I yell out "don't descend"! He finally responds by stating he would continue aerobatics 5 miles west of Wedderburn. I had to fight every natural urges not to give this guy an earful!

 

Third incident: on short final after making all the required calls I get someone enter the runway and backtrack right in front of me. They proceed to expedite themselves outside the gables. No dramas so I do a go around. At no time do they offer an apology of any kind - we all make mistakes right? How hard is it to acknowledge it? I end up in the pattern as other aircraft have now joined the circuit. This bloke now decides to take off in front of another aircraft as they are on short final. Doesn't ask the guy on final if that's ok, he just goes? Separation no more than 20 seconds.

 

Sorry for the rant, I'm just a bit peeved right now at all the sh*t I've come across lately.

 

Bluey.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Fair enough. If you say its wake turbulence then I wont argue. Im probably one of the for mentioned fixed wing pilots that dont take trike wake turbulence seriously, although I do take the regulations on flying in close proximity to other aircraft, approaching the runway when its occupied by a proceeding aircraft, and general common sense really, so Ive never landed up the butt of any type of aircraft so im going to have to take your word for it. We are all aware of the rules regarding landing on an occupied runway aren't we?

Motz

 

My run in was with a group on a fly away. I wasn't thinking about it but group dynamics need to be considered. When entering the circuit, with brain idling in neutral cause we were all but done, you assume that everyones idea of a circuit is the same as yours....Trikes, again because they are very draggy don't fly circuits that require cut lunches, in fact in general its normal to be at 1000ft turning a close in base and still put the mains on the piano keys.....Anyway, it just needs one or 2 in the group, perhaps with 3 axis experience, to fly a more normal 3 axis circuit, which in a trike means in the case of an engine failure you'll be lucky to put it down inside the airfield perimeter let along on the blacktop, and the blokes behind will be uncomfortable extending out...... and so will end up bunching up....

 

Just stuff you don't think about if your not with a group of 4 or more....

 

My experience was at Wellington SA and I ended up hitting with one main in about a 15degree bank the top of a sand bank to the south of the E/W runway as the engine was flat out in a go-around VSI was at that stage close to 0ft ...closest I came to killing myself in a plane yet! I'm still not sure to this day that the passenger had any idea how close we came...... I was embarrassed and said nothing much of it, the early landers video'd it but again didn't say that much at the dinner that night...in retrospect there was very much a lesson that I learned that could also have been taught to the other flyers but for whatever reason it wasn't something much discussed......opportunity missed

 

Andy

 

 

[facthunter]

Really bad behaviour must be reported. It comes to that otherwise someone will get hurt. Landing behind another aircraft has rules about runway occupation. If you are formating there is relaxation but you must be trained for that.

 

Regarding wake turbulence. There are a few general rules regarding causes. To disturb the air, energy is required. Generally warnings relate to heavy aircraft at low speed. This is where the spiral aircurrents from each wingtip will be at there most significant and you might still get them 8 minutes (or More) later and they are enough to invert a smaller Jet ( Like a DC9) All of them finally dissipate with time. Getting closer to smaller aircraft means the smaller wake will be significant and the design of the "wing" in the case of a trike appears to exaggerate the effect.

 

If you do a steep turn you can cut your own wake ( it's generally considered a confirmation of the accuracy of it). It can easily be felt and could cause a control difficulty or put a load on the airframe which being added to what you may already have in an aerobatic manoeuver put significant extra load on the airframe. Nev

 

 

[motzartmerv]

bluey. Mate, I hear you. As someone who takes it very seriously I have come very close on countless occasions to chucking it all in. Your accounts while very serious problems, are nothing out of the ordinary im afraid. I have in the past posted my feelings about the standards of airmenship ive witnessed at one of the airfields you mentioned, only to get visits the following weekend from some well behaved guys who found my comments offensive. I tried to explain that the comments weren't aimed at them, but I feel they were still cranky that I had said something. I have serioous concerns for the wel being of the pilots that operate from that airfield, as there are sefveral things working against them. The strip itself, the sarounding terrain, the varied types that are hangared there, the fact there is no resident school or CFI, and the fact there seems to be a real lack of safety culture. Dont get me wrong, there are plenty of good operators there, but as you have pointed out, there are some wild ones.

 

Mate I could fill several pages with incidents like this, from all different airfields, but I would just come across as a whinger. So I wont.

 

With respect to the current accident, Im glad you guys have pointed out the dangers of trike wake turbulence, its my opinion that it is probably only an issue to other trikes as they are likely to be close, and susceptible to the phenomenon.

 

While I can see how arriving together could cause some conflict, I would argue and suggest strongly to you all that regardeless of the situation, airmenship should always apply. If not MORE SO on fly aways such as this. You have all the ingredients for disaster all ready to give you a bad day. So if you are bunched up, do something about it. Go around, get away. Space out before you get to the airfeild get on the radio and talk to each other, maintain a minimum separation. I dont accept that fly aways should produce any abnormal situations. If it is happening, then get some more senior guys to run extensive briefings before you depart. Brief on route weather, proximity flying, route features (forced landing areas) radio procedures (chat channel etc), arrival procedures, aerodrome specific arrival procedures (circuit directions etc) and seperation procedures. It would only take 20 minutes and make it much safer.

 

I hope im not coming acros preachy, but I think when an accident has "implied" safety problems that can be avoided I reckon we should all discuss it. Im glad to know the info ive learned in this thread. Cheers

 

 

[Patrick Normoyle]

Mots, very well said, "Sage advice" in opinion, don't take that as saying your old ! But good advice.

 

 

[Ignition]

Apologies in advanced for continuing with the off topic discussion, however I feel it necessary to highlight a few things mentioned.

 

-clipped-

Bluey.

Bluey, the incidents you describe do show some traces poor airmanship, however going off on a slight tangent (And don't take this personally, I am not having a go at you), I feel it is necessary to refer you to CAR 166C, in which it basically states that the other pilots are not obliged to respond/acknowledge/apologise and so on, over the radio to you. Although it may be polite to respond, it is not a requirement as per CAR 166C - "CAR 166C requires a pilot to make a broadcast whenever it is reasonably necessary to do so to avoid a collision, or the risk of a collision, with another aircraft."

 

Your incidents appear to show that the pilots were following the See and Avoid principal, just my interpretation:

 

Incident 1) Aircraft on Active Runway, Going Around.

 

Incident 2) You had the other aircraft in sight the entire time and were (I hope*) prepared to manoeuvre as necessary to avoid collision. (*I say I hope, because I hope you would take evasive action and not expect the other aircraft to move out of the way for you; he may not have even known you were there.)

 

Incident 3) The other pilot had not seen you, however when they did, they exited the runway to avoid collision and you also commenced a go around.

 

You also need to remember that there are many scenarios which may create the situation where they do not respond:

 

- Radio Failure

 

- Incorrect Frequency

 

- Poor Reception

 

- They may have felt no conflict risk that would require necessary arranging further separation

 

- Over Transmitting

 

Do not expect everyone to hear you, keep in mind the principals of See and Avoid and Aviate, Navigate and then Communicate.

 

CAAP 166-2: "11.5 Pilots should be mindful that transmission of information by radio does not guarantee receipt and complete understanding of that information." This is why it is important to not take radios for granted in aviation, not everyone will hear you, you should never expect the radio to act as the single most important safety device in the aircraft. Remember, the most important safety device is the Pilot, not reliable at all but he or she is the one who makes the decisions that directly affect the safety of the flight at all times.

 

With regards specifically to Incident 2: If however you had have lost your temper and had a go at him over the radio, he would have been in a position to report you. "A person may operate radio apparatus only to transmit a non-superfluous signal or a signal containing non-profane or non-obscene radio communications."

 

Also I will highlight this quote just to cover that base also, although not directly relating to anything you have posted, it is worth adding. - CAAP 166-2: "11.8 Under no circumstances should a pilot attempt to direct other traffic. Direction of air traffic (as opposed to alerting, requesting or advising) is an ATC function and should not be performed by pilots in flight or on the ground. Pilots who seek to direct other pilots as a pseudo air traffic controller, either innocently or to obtain expedited traffic movement, are acting beyond common courtesy and are potentially operating outside the law. Such actions may expose pilots to liability if their direction results in an undesirable outcome."

 

If you felt necessary, did you file an incident report for any of the scenarios you have presented?

 

(Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, please do not interpret any of it as such. Basically it is just my long winded way of saying: fly the plane, the radio can enhance safety, but don't take it for granted.)

 

 

[turboplanner]

When I compare flying before the see and be seen policy and after it, it's no contest that radio played a major part in safe operations around circuits.

 

In my opinion it was just a risk dumping exercise by the predecessors of Department of Infrastructure and Transport.

 

 

[Steve Donald]

bugger the sections of the act or the abillities to quote superfluous crap, just follow them to a landing point and show them their error in judgement, some make mistakes like anyone can and some just dont give a shit or bother learning the rules or are too dumb to understand how their actions can affect others, or the posible outcomes for that matter. but hey it happens everywhere on the road water you name it, they are everywhere fly accordingly .