Wagga Wagga accident

[Bluey]

What ignition has said makes sense in regards to air law in the proper use of a radio. However, when a pilot asks you to acknowledge a transmission and state whether they have you sighted or not then the proper procedure is to look for the traffic and respond yay or nay. To not respond invites unnecessary anxiety. I felt increasingly threatened by that individual because his behaviour was erratic. His airspeed was about three times mine. When he performed a sharp right hand turn above me he was unsighted as he was above my wing. My radio call telling him not to descend was made as a desperate attempt of staving off a collision with an aircraft I could no longer see. If he had let me know I had been sighted in the first place there wouldn't have been any issue at all.

 

No reports were ever made as no identification could be made.

 

While apologies are not necessary, they do diffuse situations very quickly and certainly don't hurt anyone. It's just a little courtesy.

 

For instance, in the case of the first incident, the pilot of that aircraft should have at least let me know whether he had seen me while we were both on final. While it may not change anything now, at least it would have been reassuring to know someone was in control. His failure to communicate was just a butt covering excercise as far as I'm concerned.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

bugger the sections of the act or the abillities to quote superfluous crap, just follow them to a landing point and show them their error in judgement.. .

That's the initial impulse. Prudence suggests otherwise. Get a look at their ID and use the system.

In-car video cams are now so cheap that's another option, if only to protect ourselves in the event of an incident.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Fair enough. If you say its wake turbulence then I wont argue. Im probably one of the for mentioned fixed wing pilots that dont take trike wake turbulence seriously, although I do take the regulations on flying in close proximity to other aircraft, approaching the runway when its occupied by a proceeding aircraft, and general common sense really, so Ive never landed up the butt of any type of aircraft so im going to have to take your word for it. We are all aware of the rules regarding landing on an occupied runway aren't we?

Merv. . .

 

Maybe we should rename the turbulence effect describede here as "THRUST TURBULENCE" . . . ? I've seen this effect many times with aircraft carrying out a "Follow - on" take off, especially in low or nil wind conditions, without wating a short while for the rotary effect to disperse and lose energy and it can be qhite violent. Some time ago, carrying a cameraman for BBC local, I followed a trike on takeoff froma position echelon right, and we were supposed to film the takeoff for a local documantary programme. All was well until the target airvcraft turned gently left to follow the circuit, and as I followed him, still slighly behind and on his right side, I suddenly lost control authority of my aeroplane ( Also a trike ) which rolled violently to almost a 90 degree bank to the right. . . . and this happened very quickly indeed. I had obviously flown into the raw rotary disturbance from the other aircraft, as it pulled away from me, being" inside" of the formation turn so to speak. . ., causing me to turn more tightly to keep up even though there was no appreciable surface wind at the site that day.

 

You are right of course with your comment about general "Wake" turbulence, which is created by the displacement and disturbance caused by a whole airframe, whilst it is in the process of producing lift and thrust, the bigger the airframe, well. . . the bigger the disturbance . . . ( I wonder if it's linear or logarithmic ?? I ought to know that, probably forgotten now ! well.. . .no matter here. . .) but the "FLYING CLOSE BEHIND A TRIKE ON THE POWER" effect is darned lethal mate. I would imagine that, perhaps to a slightly lesser effect that if you did the same behind a "Pusher" configuration machine of any type, that a similar situation could arise. Phil

 

 

[skeptic36]

Sorry Phil, it is the design of the wing and the draggyness of the trike (causing it to fly at high angle of attack) which is producing the vortices.

 

I say again : http://www.trikepilot.com/magazine/read/wake-turbulence_609.html

 

Regards Bill

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

Sorry Phil, it is the design of the wing and the draggyness of the trike (causing it to fly at high angle of attack) which is producing the vortices.I say again : http://www.trikepilot.com/magazine/read/wake-turbulence_609.html

Regards Bill

Skeptic is quite right, it's the fact that trikes are delta wings rather than just a factor of their weight and speed.

 

Even the article linked to above doesn't do the issue justice. Delta shaped wings produce their lift at low speeds in a wholly different manner from unswept or mildly swept wings, and deltas continue producing increasing amounts of lift at very high angles of attack (alpha), up to double and more than the alpha at which conventional wings reach their stalling point.

 

The wake turbulence associated with delta wings isn't just a wingtip vortex, it's a far more powerful vortex than that and the worst wake aspect of it is that it is a very large diameter vortex, each of them are large enough to fully envelope a closely following aircraft which means that one wing of the follower will be experiencing a high negative alpha and the other wing will have a high positive alpha, producing a rolling force on the aircraft that can be outside the controllability of any weight shift input.

 

The vortex associated with deltas at high alpha, when landing for instance, is referred to as the leading edge vortex, and it effectively re-shapes the wing as far as the airflow is concerned, and drags the airflow over it and back onto the wing, permitting high alpha flight without stalling, but it is also a very high drag condition, hence the enormous forces in the wake.

 

These pics illustrate the condition quite well, for more info Google 'delta wing vortex lift' -

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Thanks Phil and others for the useful info. I'm sure that the issue is covered in taining for a trike certificate? If not it should be as trikes always seem to be found in pairs ;) . Like I said before I can't see it being to much of a problem for most fixed wing aeroplanes simply due to the fact they aren't likely to get themselves so close behind a trike without it causing other problems like a collision. I would be more of a believer of the Wing design causing the problem rather than the thrust from a small propellor engine. I have felt " thrust" turbulence from some larger more significant engines than a trike and while its certainly there, it was not too much of an issue. Further more I couldn't see the weight shift control method being overly effective in countering sudden gusts etc. IMHO the real issue here is avoiding being close enough to any aeroplane to experience the phenomonem :) great info though guys thank you :)

 

 

[Tomwantstobeapilot]

This video on YouTube shows some trike wake turbulence. It's obviously not as extreme as it must have been in this incident but it's scary nonetheless.

 

 

Tom

 

 

[facthunter]

It seems that it is the cause here. Calm conditions make it worse as it dissipates slower. Flying slightly upwind gets you out of the wake, (or above the flight path) Nev

 

 

[motzartmerv]

We seem to be forgetting nongs post and eyewitness account. A go around with a steep turn and subsequent nose down and impact. It sounds like he had at least some of the turn completed? Sounds to me as another explanation other than wake turbs could be that a steep low level turn was just stuffed up.

 

The only reason I'm rehashing an early post is to highlight another safety problem, and without any evidence it's all conjecture, but regardless it all seems to have been Instigated by a proximity problem.

 

 

[Bluey]

We seem to be forgetting nongs post and eyewitness account. A go around with a steep turn and subsequent nose down and impact. It sounds like he had at least some of the turn completed? Sounds to me as another explanation other than wake turbs could be that a steep low level turn was just stuffed up. The only reason I'm rehashing an early post is to highlight another safety problem, and without any evidence it's all conjecture, but regardless it all seems to have been Instigated by a proximity problem.

Are we clear on the version of events? I've only heard my version relayed by others on the fly away.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

No, as per usual we can't be clear on the events. I was trying to extract all that can be learned from annicdotal evidence. It seems to be enough to attribute blame to wake turbulence in the same weight of Evidence ;). Nongs post does not really support that theory.

 

 

[Bluey]

No, as per usual we can't be clear on the events. I was trying to extract all that can be learned from annicdotal evidence. It seems to be enough to attribute blame to wake turbulence in the same weight of Evidence ;). Nongs post does not really support that theory.

I've just spoken to one of the participants and they hadn't heard the version regarding a steep turn. He also stated that no one was really talking about it anyway as they are all just focusing on the great flying their enjoying. Lucky bastards!

 

Either way, this one should be pretty straight forward to resolve provided someone relays what the people involved say actually happened.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yea bluey, i wasn't there either..:).. Im glad they are all enjoying themselves and putting the unfortunate prang behind them. I was meerly pointing out that there are other theories with just as much 'evidence' ie, some dude said so..:)

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Where at they now bluey? Did they manage to stay clear of the front that jut went through?

 

 

[Bluey]

They're at Parkes having too much fun :-)

 

 

[goflying]

Having just returned home from visiting the pilot in hospital, i think i should write from our recollection ( the pilot and myself as the passenger ). We were on late final waiting for the trike in front of us to vacate the runway, once he cleared the runway and gave his call, we commenced our decent , as we started to round out we drifted to the left, i don't know if it was wake turbulence or wind drift or whatever but it was a smooth drift to the left, the pilot then tried to correct this to realign with the runway at which time we got thumped on the runway hitting the right tip of the wing and landing very hard . The motor then went to full power and we got launched in the air again. It seemed he was going to do a go around when he realized the motor was stuck at full throttle, he said he was going to do an emergency landing, killed the motor and commenced our decent for landing. At this point all seemed fine to me, when we were about 50", the trike stalled, the nose and the right wing dropped and then we hit the ground and slid across the surface coming to a stop. Everything happens so quick you can't do anything. When i spook to the pilot in hospital, it really shocked me that he said when we took of again for the go around that apart from no throttle control he also had very little pitch and roll control. I don't know what caused this but i guess we were in the hands of the man upstairs. The pilot sustained a broken pelvis and i just had muscle soreness all over but mainly to my leg where i got pinned under the trike. I'm ok now but the pilot has had a plate inserted to his pelvis and will be some time before he recovers from his injuries. Despite what he is going through, he remains in good spirits.

 

 

[Keenaviator]

Sorry Phil, it is the design of the wing and the draggyness of the trike (causing it to fly at high angle of attack) which is producing the vortices.I say again : http://www.trikepilot.com/magazine/read/wake-turbulence_609.html

Regards Bill

It's about time someone referred to the so called 'wake turbulence' by its correct term - wing tip vortices. Thrust has nothing to do with it and the power of these vortices should not be underestimated.

 

 

[Bluey]

Thank you so much for posting this. I'm sure I speak for everyone on here when I say that we are so glad to hear that your ok and that the pilot will make a good if not slow recovery.

 

The loss of control would have been caused by a range of bent components from the base tube to the mast and even a keel tube to mention just a few. The original impact would have sent shock waves through the entire airframe resulting in the control difficulties the pilot described. I have heard of at least one other instance of a jammed throttle being caused by a very heavy nose wheel first impact such as the one you described. In that example the pilot described similar control issues. In that case, the pilot was able to land safely after climbing to a few thousand feet above the airfield before cutting the ignition switches.

 

All the best to the both of you.

 

Bluey.

 

 

[alf jessup]

Having just returned home from visiting the pilot in hospital, i think i should write from our recollection ( the pilot and myself as the passenger ). We were on late final waiting for the trike in front of us to vacate the runway, once he cleared the runway and gave his call, we commenced our decent , as we started to round out we drifted to the left, i don't know if it was wake turbulence or wind drift or whatever but it was a smooth drift to the left, the pilot then tried to correct this to realign with the runway at which time we got thumped on the runway hitting the right tip of the wing and landing very hard . The motor then went to full power and we got launched in the air again. It seemed he was going to do a go around when he realized the motor was stuck at full throttle, he said he was going to do an emergency landing, killed the motor and commenced our decent for landing. At this point all seemed fine to me, when we were about 50", the trike stalled, the nose and the right wing dropped and then we hit the ground and slid across the surface coming to a stop. Everything happens so quick you can't do anything. When i spook to the pilot in hospital, it really shocked me that he said when we took of again for the go around that apart from no throttle control he also had very little pitch and roll control. I don't know what caused this but i guess we were in the hands of the man upstairs. The pilot sustained a broken pelvis and i just had muscle soreness all over but mainly to my leg where i got pinned under the trike. I'm ok now but the pilot has had a plate inserted to his pelvis and will be some time before he recovers from his injuries. Despite what he is going through, he remains in good spirits.

Frank,

 

I am ever so glad to hear you are ok and that Max will be fine after he heals, yes it can happen quickly as you stated but you survived and that is something others in your situation have not.

 

Count your blessings mate.

 

I sort of agree with Bluey on components being shocked as you are well aware of which may have contributed to the control difficulty. as for the stuck throttle well that is anyones guess, foot slammed hard on the throttle in fright, or as Bluey said a high impact, who knows?

 

Main thing is mate your both still here, the trike can be replaced but both you can't.

 

Take care mate.

 

Alf

 

 

[Patrick Normoyle]

This video on YouTube shows some trike wake turbulence. It's obviously not as extreme as it must have been in this incident but it's scary nonetheless.

Wake turbulance moves out and away while moving downwards I doubt the is related all to the preceding departure.

 

 

[goflying]

Thanks Alf, Bluey and everyone else for their well wishes, I'll pass it onto Max next time i see him.

 

 

[skeptic36]

This video is evolution trikes advertising material, but at the 20 second mark it shows the wingtip vortices very clearly

 

 

 

[Tomwantstobeapilot]

This video is evolution trikes advertising material, but at the 20 second mark it shows the wingtip vortices very clearly

Now that's cool :-)

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Yeah I'll bet the Duncan brothers were thrilled to bits to be video'd in that

 

 

[campslive]

another trike model to check out is the light sport north wing apache 582 strutless folding wing design

 

not certain about quality compared to a revo but good to see some one designing and advancing more affordable models

 

and hopefully a market also in australia ?