Licencing Regos etc

[Nev25]

Hypothetically speaking

 

If person A was to let Person B copy the plans for a particular Home build aircraft

 

Would there be Issues with Person B get to aircraft flyable and registered

 

Or maybe if Person B acquired the plans by an illegal means Hypothetically speaking of course would there be issues

 

The plans I recently Bought come with a serial Number I can only assume this is what they are for

 

But what is they don't come with one

 

Just asking

 

 

[Gforce]

Interesting Hypothetically ........ I dont know the answer. I DO know that People download plans and use them. Do you NEED a serial number ? Is it a requirment ? I guess it is as RAA ask for it when applying don't they ? But then, plans are dirt cheap, someone went to alot of work to ensure you could build the plane, it was safe and it flew so it worth the $500 IMHO. Then some... Just saying

 

 

[dazza 38]

Lets just say that Person B's name is Ben Dover, he can use the plans and say that it is his own design even though it may very much look like another design. He can name "his" design what ever he decides like "Dover Rover' or what ever takes his fancy. It wouldn't be the first time that this has been done. It may be a bit naughty, but it does happen.

 

OR he could just build it and register it as a plans homebuilt with the correct name and make up a serial number. But what would be the fun in that.

 

 

[djpacro]

I used to sell plans for a home-built aircraft design - plans with unique serial number dispatched after I received the money and a signed agreement including that only one aircraft would be built from those plans. Some people sold their plans on to some-one else to start our continue a project, fine with me.

 

Rarely, some-one would acquire plans somehow and have no agreement with me, typically after the person had finished building one. Had one discussion with some-one who had a set of plans with the serial number blanked out.

 

Didn't happen often enough for me to worry about it. Much more lucrative to manufacture and sell kit components than just the plans - over to some-one else.

 

Others may like to debate copyright or industrial design rights http://www.ipaustralia.gov.au/ My plans were sold in several other countries.

 

Those who bought my plans also received updates to the plans and responses to technical queries. Those who didn't ... didn't. I remember one finished aircraft from plans of dubious source with a significant modification to the structural design of the wing. No-one asked me in advance however an airworthiness authority sought my advice when it came time to fly it - I suggested they ask the person who designed the wing modification.

 

 

[Gforce]

Lets just say that Person B's name is Ben Dover, he can use the plans and say that it is his own design even though it may very much look like another design. He can name "his" design what ever he decides like "Dover Rover' or what ever takes his fancy. It wouldn't be the first time that this has been done. It may be a bit naughty, but it does happen.OR he could just build it and register it as a plans homebuilt with the correct name and make up a serial number. But what would be the fun in that.

Ben Dover ? the porn star ??

 

 

[dazza 38]

Ben Dover ? the porn star ??

Yep and he has a mate called Phil MeCracken.

 

 

[rankamateur]

And I thought they were Ben Doon and Philip McCavity too!

 

 

[Bubbleboy]

Good question! I bought a set of Pietenpol plans from the Pietenpol family in the USA. No serial numbers at all. I then bought the same set with UK approved modifications and these were issued with a serial number.

 

A mate here is building a Corby Starlet and informed me that only one aircraft can be built per set of plans. I dont believe that was Mr Corbys decision but when it comes time to register it, he will need to produce the plans it was built off. He bought a set of plans from a guy who bought them from Mr Corby but didnt build an aircraft off them. He has since confirmed with Mr Corby that this was ok with him and the plans are legit.

 

So with that in mind, I would imagine you will need a set of plans with a serial number or at the very least a letter/contract from the designer stating you can build an aircraft off that set of plans.

 

Someone who knows otherwise please educate me.

 

Scotty

 

 

[coljones]

It is like buying a CD, copying the music to your MP3 player and then flogging the CD. It is called theft unless the designer/publisher is OK with the copying.

 

It usually takes much time to qualify a design and produce drawings of anything, including planes and houses. The plans are usually sold at a fraction of their cost in the hope that there will be sufficient sales to recoup the time, effort and costs of producing the design and drawings.

 

It would be better to be nice to the designer, pay his asking price and maybe benefit from product improvements that they have discovered since the original.

 

 

[metalman]

I used to sell plans for a home-built aircraft design - plans with unique serial number dispatched after I received the money and a signed agreement including that only one aircraft would be built from those plans. Some people sold their plans on to some-one else to start our continue a project, fine with me.Rarely, some-one would acquire plans somehow and have no agreement with me, typically after the person had finished building one. Had one discussion with some-one who had a set of plans with the serial number blanked out.

Didn't happen often enough for me to worry about it. Much more lucrative to manufacture and sell kit components than just the plans - over to some-one else.

 

Others may like to debate copyright or industrial design rights http://www.ipaustralia.gov.au/ My plans were sold in several other countries.

 

Those who bought my plans also received updates to the plans and responses to technical queries. Those who didn't ... didn't. I remember one finished aircraft from plans of dubious source with a significant modification to the structural design of the wing. No-one asked me in advance however an airworthiness authority sought my advice when it came time to fly it - I suggested they ask the person who designed the wing modification.

Geez your a dark horse DJP, any photos of this aircraft?

 

 

[djpacro]

Listed here http://aerobaticsweb.org/acro_planes.html

 

 

[kaz3g]

http://www.ozaeros.net//laser/laserspec.html

[Nev25]

? But then, plans are dirt cheap, someone went to alot of work to ensure you could build the plane, it was safe and it flew so it worth the $500 IMHO. Then some... Just saying

Agreed but why would the person buy something he already has

 

It is like buying a CD, copying the music to your MP3 player and then flogging the CD. It is called theft unless the designer/publisher is OK with the copying..

It actually completely different person B is not going to resell the plans

Using your CD example

 

It like a Musician buying the CD and learning to play the song/s on it to play in Public

 

This actually comes under performing rights and it depends on who wrote the song in the first place (I worked in the entertainment industry for 15 years)

 

So how does one Licence something like a MINI MAX or an aircraft build from plans downloaded form CFair yahoo group etc

 

Then there's the problem with the CRI CRI and who actually owns the rights to the plans

 

 

[dazza 38]

If person A buys a set of plans but then decides that he doesn't want to build that aircraft and GIVES person B the original plans, I cannot see a problem . If person A photo copies the plans and gives the copy of the plans to person B. I guess it isn't fair to the original designer as there is now a extra copy in circulation that the original plans, of which they have not received any remuneration.

 

PS- there are a lot of copied plans around. I actually have been given 2 different full plans for a couple of 95.10 designs many years ago. I have never used them but I think I still have them somewhere.

 

 

[Bandit12]

So how does one Licence something like a MINI MAX or an aircraft build from plans downloaded form CFair yahoo group etc

I suspect that plans that have been truly released into the public domain would be fine. Just collect all of the information possible to verify the status in case it is ever challenged.

 

 

[Gforce]

Gforce said: ↑

 

? But then, plans are dirt cheap, someone went to alot of work to ensure you could build the plane, it was safe and it flew so it worth the $500 IMHO. Then some... Just saying

 

Agreed but why would the person buy something he already has

 

What Im saying is, there are alot of plans you can download on the net. I have HEAPS lol.. I don't have ether the skill or the time to build most of them but if I was to build a plans build aircraft I would call the designer and buy them leggit. I have Cri Cri Plans... would love to build one but Im 6.4 so doubt I ever will but if i were to, I would call Michael Colomban and order them

 

Keep in mind... The plans are the cheapest part of your build but the backbone. So why not get them from the licences distributor, and then have the support where available. Seems so strait forward to me.

 

 

[2tonne]

DJP referred to the IP Australia website, and I agree there could be some IP issues around providing a copy of the plans to another person. I am no expert but both copyright and registered designs could potentially be relevant.

 

My limited understanding is that copyright automatically resides in the plans at the time they are created by the designer. So, typically when the designer sells their plans they grant a limited licence to exempt the purchaser from copyright infringement when they use the plans to build an aircraft. But, that license would not (usually) extend to copying or distributing the plans - hence, shouldn't copy and distribute them.

 

It does get complicated though, because there is a registered designs/copyright overlap in Australia (very, very complicated). The d/c overlap in a nutshell is this - if more than 50 articles (ie aircraft) are produced using the plans, then copyright protection may no longer be available on the basis that it could have been protected as a registered design (which is considered more appropriate for "industrially produced" articles).

 

So, short answer would be - probably best not to copy the plans without consent of the designer. Probably also fair that the designer get some reward for their hard work also.

 

Now, please do not hold me to anything I have just written as I am not a lawyer.

 

 

[metalman]

I,ve got a few plans sets at home, all paid for from the suppliers, and really the plans would be the cheapest part of building a plane. Plus if you do it the right way you will have the option to talk with the designer on any issues you might have , if you've got a set of pirated plans you may save in the short term but you loose out in the support scenario.

 

I've got a couple of different MiniMax palns that they're giving away free at the moment, would be a great way to get airborne for minimal cost!

 

 

[metalman]

Listed here http://aerobaticsweb.org/acro_planes.html

cool looking plane mate :-)

 

 

[Yenn]

The issue here is copyright of intellectual material. The person who owns the design, did the plans, and can sue for breach of copyright. It would be hard to get a conviction, but the cost of plans is small compared to the final cost of the plane. I bought a part built plane and set of plane, had no trouble registering it and was not asked for the plans. It enables a builder to get info from the designer and also it is an honest way of behaving, although a lot of people nowadays don't know what honesty is.