Feed back wanted

[Garry Morgan]

I am wanting feed back on what type of glider would interested you

 

.

 

1 a performance glider 13.5 m class self launch,single seat.35-38-1 glide

 

2 simple car roof rack for transport glider 10-12m self launch. Light 20-25-1 glide

 

3 Motor touring glider 2 place.26-30-1

 

4 foot launch glider

 

would be cheap as a plan and parts to build ,or built.

 

 

[paulh]

Ok, I'll start the conversation, but from the perspective of a low hour RAA pilot

 

Option 1 high performance would rule out me, need to do a lot of hours training to be able to use some of the performance with safety - appeal to the more purist glider pilots. Self launch is good, go when you want on your own.

 

Option 2 this has appeal, something to keep in a trailer, low operational cost, a bit like an expand Sapphire with detachable wings

 

, not the full performance glider but still self launch.

 

Option 3 nice idea, obviously far higher cost to build and operate, hangarage an issue with those long wings. May have limited market, as despite the advantages of touring and soaring ability, they seem to be a low percentage of aircraft type at airfields around here. Not many Xenos in Aus.

 

Option 4 my undercarriage may not survive a hard landing! Seriously I think para gliders have this market and they fold up to put in the boot

 

 

[apm]

Gary, I'd go for higher performance single seat self launch, even better if I could build it myself.

 

 

[nomadpete]

Gary, There two answers here -

 

1. I'd really like a touring MG so I can go see the outback and experience the Morning Glory.

 

2. I'd really like a single seat self launching glider to do gliding x - country with the security of not having to have a retireve crew or the inconvenience of needing a tuggie every time I have the urge to go 'feeling up' the air.

 

I'd love to see what you are cooking up though.

 

Peter T

 

 

[Garry Morgan]

There is a new 13.5m class , this would make an easy to rig by one person, I have designing one for a while, but also to able to made as a home built with a good wing, ( shrinking) of fillers and glues are a problem which we think have over come, with no moulds for the wings.

 

A glider is a much bigger challenge than a power aircraft, but I think we can do a good glider off plans and cheap.

 

 

[Guernsey]

Gary, what happened to the 2 seat motor glider with the folding wings???

 

Alan Marriette.

 

 

[Garry Morgan]

The two seat touring glider is coming along well, Tim is fitting flaps etc. Wings are fitted, still the wing tips ,the instrument panel is painted ready to fit and wire, just canopy to fit to the frame, we have changed the pivot arms so we can try to fit gas struts.We sold two aircraft this week ( one kit , and a airframe) so I was hoping Tim could finish it in the next two months but this will now be extended.I got a fly this week in a DG 1001 20m self launch that was an experience 48-1 glide had a ride in a DG 505 which was 50-1 a few years ago.

 

 

[Guernsey]

Thanks for the reply Gary.

 

Alan.

 

 

[Garry Morgan]

Thanks for you comments so far, The 13.5m design I am working at present is at the model stage we are looking at about 38-1 glide, this will have flaps as it has a 10% wing thickness at the root and the max 12.5 at the tip. We will then test a 18m wing for low sink in winter and not so good days. it will have a pop up motor 28hp Hirth. this can be built with out moulds at home of plans.

 

The touring motor glider with the outer wing pannels of is about 5.8m span and goes into the hangar the same as a power aircraft, and one person can easly rig the wings. also a home built of plans.

 

A car topper was a through as a cheap easy glider, I am to old now for foot launch, I here someone invented a wheel.

 

 

[Vev]

I am wanting feed back on what type of glider would interested you.

1 a performance glider 13.5 m class self launch,single seat.35-38-1 glide

 

2 simple car roof rack for transport glider 10-12m self launch. Light 20-25-1 glide

 

3 Motor touring glider 2 place.26-30-1

 

4 foot launch glider

 

would be cheap as a plan and parts to build ,or built.

Question for you.... Are gliders or motor gliders permissible under RAA aircraft categories???

 

Cheers

 

Vev

 

 

[David Isaac]

As long as you don't turn the engine off ...

 

 

[Vev]

As long as you don't turn the engine off ...

Very funny Dave!

 

Serious question though, as I heard there were some people unable, or had great difficulty, in renewing their registration after the technical cleansing exercise of the files.

 

I would hate to think someone would go to a lot of work in designing a glider for RAA pilots to learn that the RAA say are out of scope.

 

Hopefully someone here with more knowledge on this topic will know for sure?

 

Cheers

 

Vev

 

 

[Garry Morgan]

The way RAA look at it is, if the motor is fixed it is ok ,if it retracts it is not. and will need to go GFA expemterial as my 13.5m will be . The touring motor glider with a fixed motor could go with the RAA.

 

I have been asked about a bigger wing for a Cheetah / Sierra so you could change wings. This is on the drawing board as there is at least one guy going to do it . 15m span and a wing loading 27 solo -33 kg per sq m on a Cheetah. We have been talking about the Super Diamond with a 13m wing ,as it is so strong you can use the same spar at 6G just an easy way to go gliding.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Well if it is a powered glider and the intention is to shut down the engine, is that not permitted under some stupid RA Aus rule?

 

 

[Garry Morgan]

That is correct David, but when you see all the other motor gliders for sale with RAA rego they have so many power hrs and ... gliding hrs. I was at my new club in the Hunter Valley last week and a guy made a worrying statement, he was talking to a friend over seas and said gliding in Australia had 10-15 years left and it will be finished. Hell I through ,but he may be right , when you look at the age most members (65) and at 80 years old they will be leaving the sport.I am reading a book of Allen Ash on early gliding in Australia, ave. age of 25, the club brought planes and had to build there glider so they could fly. Are we having to take a step back wards to a lower performance, but change to self launch to save cost and time on waiting for a aircraft, which is killing gliding.And red tape is the worst it has ever been in GFA. CASA cant make up its mind with our Alpin dm8 which cat. it will go in and GFA dont have an appointment from CASA to give it a permit to fly. it has been in Aust for 8 years now and other gliders are also on the ground. (it is not only RAA that is having problems with CASA) What are us flyers going to do and where do we go? I think a cheap self launch simple glider, 1 ltr of fuel and fly for the day and just get your head in the clouds

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

CASA = Conspiracy Against Successfull Aviation !

 

"We're not happy until your unhappy !".......

 

 

[paulh]

Garry I think you make some very good points about the future of recreational flying, the article "Tough Times" in the latest Sport Pilot is similar. I've read this sort or thing before unrelated to aviation, that the baby boomer generation has a high disposable income but the following generations ie our children have huge mortgages etc to pay off and some forecasters say that the future personal disposable income will decline. An indicator of this is the housing trend in SE Qld which has been for years now small houses on very small lots to try to get them more affordable but still need a big mortgage. Interestingly the majority of young people I meet in my work have little interest in big boys toys and are more interested in living closer to the city where the action is. They also didn't grow up with post war stories, books, movies etc that featured flying, and have grown up with technology and entertainment. Apparently a Play Station and on line games sitting at home on the couch is still cool when you are in your late twenties.

 

Others will have observations about different regions and have a different opinion.

 

Back to flying, we now have a market full of high performance LSA's, lots of expensive avionics etc but the cost is very high.

 

Every flyin I've been to, grey haired middle aged men are by far the majority, very few young people.

 

I think that you are on to something, looking for the next market wave to come over and perhaps not trying to compete with the huge selection of imported LSA's - simple strong safe aircraft that are less expensive to buy and run.

 

Choices like your Super Diamond trailerable with removable longer wings and modest hp so it's not fast maybe 70kts but can still be used to fly point to point,ie to the weekend flyin or a mates place but does have some soaring ability.

 

What do others think?

 

 

[David Isaac]

I agree Paul, I think Garry has a potential winner.

 

Who knows maybe we will end up back in the early 80s where we flew ultralights without a license or membership of anything out of any paddock you could find as long as it met basic weight configurations and that was legal then. But I guess we don't want to be forced below 300' like we were then. Cant glide for long below 300' LOL.

 

Garry I am not sure of this, but does tha RAA reg about no engine shutdown apply only in the circuit; because if it does then you can shutdown at height and soar, just restart before entering the circuit. It is absurd in the extreme that we have a rule that prohibits an engine shutdown regardless of class. Surely we could have an RAA gliding class that allows engine shutdown after appropriate training and endorsement.

 

 

[facthunter]

Retracting a motor seems like a lot of bother Gary. Why can't it just freewheel? ( Declutch it or feather).

 

Regarding the age of everyone who is active in real things, being somewhat high. ( I find this in all activities) What are the youngsters doing? Living in a virtual one or just sitting down and saying "I'm Bored" ? Nev

 

 

[Garry Morgan]

The prop has to fold or get it out of the air or the drag on a small light glider , or like most other converted power to motor gliders dont work, unless you have a motor falke or my touring glider I am building, which is bigger and 2 seat, weight behind it to make it perpetrate . But still pay a big time in performance.

 

Apart from the V twins I was looking at , there is a cheap electric motor ( Turnegy) fom hobby king 150cc eql. or even a reduction 2-1 on it could do well, but would be limited if you want to cruise to the lift. This would make a very light glider but would have a about 22kg per sq m double that of a hang glider.

 

We may have to go back to towing down the strip for handling training to teach basic to early pilots ,it would be cheap and no CASA .I have two motor gliders a SF 27m and a two seat Alpin dm8 self launch, but I cant fly then due to red tape. And I can only see more aircraft grounded in time.

 

 

[Garry Morgan]

Designing, and listing to comments from people, and I want to put something back into gliding, and make a simple build, but also have a performance of modern gliders. I am now getting to where the design will go. The trouble with long thin wings the bending moments get out of hand, for the normal materials. Our power aircraft are only about 30,000 lb moment, our touring motor glider 18m span has about 100,000lb, a 20m wing like a duo 150mm thick has a moment of 620,000lb. One has no option but to go to carbon fibre which I wanted to stay away from but I cant, carbon is about 75% weaker in compression than tension but still be very strong. Then the cost ,the 2024 spars in my 18m touring motor glider are $3500.00 from the USA, but carbon for a 20m wing only cost $1500.00 which was a big surprise .A two seater 20-22 m self launch 40-50-1 glide, and a 4 peice wing so to trailer or hangar is made easier. No moulds for the wing, but it can be made as good as a moulded wing. and $20,000 complete. Comments made it wont be any good because it doesn't cost enough . I had a fly in the Duo this week, and liked it over the DG 1001 for the seating set out, also flew our new Alpin DM8 yesterday for the first time, it was ok but I can make a much better glider, changes in the latest gliders in control set up, make them a lot nicer to fly. Control systems in gliders are very complicated, ours will only have one tube and one push rod. There is no plan avaible in the world for a modern homebuilt, or high performance self launch. and nothering at such a low cost.

 

 

[paulh]

Higher cost of construction doesn't always equal better design or performance in many things, and most likely applies to aircraft as well. Keep at it Garry, I still think that there is a market gap that your are aiming for - just need RAAus to have a G endorsement

 

 

[Pkeff]

I would like to see a self launch glider, single seat, capable of aerobatics (similar to what the DG 1001 can do or better), made in Oz with add on winglets to increase the glide ratio for when I want to just stooge around for a few hours doing a navex. Now, that's what I would like, a rush from getting the aeros down pat before lunch and then some thermal adventures after lunch. Where can I buy this glider??? Light and a one man set up. Comes with a trailer so I can move it around Oz. Is this the type of glider that your 13.5m self launch going to be??

 

P.S. I have two gen Y sons, and I can tell you that they are interested in flying, but you have to leave your 50 year old comfort zone and get to where these young men are at. And one thing that needs more thought to get Gen Y or X into gliding is that these younger blokes are big. My two sons are 6' 4" & 6' 3" around 95kg. These new gliders need to be able to allow these blokes room to move. Get that right and then realise that they don't want to spend all day at the airfield, self launch is the future of gliding. The gliding clubs need to be catering for these tech savvy blokes, set up simulators and flying programs etc. Instead of talking about whatever with old mate get the clubs to start workshops on kit builds that all newbies contribute to on a volunteer basis with proven designs of the likes that Gary is working on. Teach them the theory of flight by getting them to build a glider, when its finished sell it and do another one, profit goes to the clubs.

 

Gliding is not dead, old school gliding is not moving fast enough to keep pace with the times. Unfortunately time moves much quicker today than yesterday, my sons play computer games and these stimulate their endorphins. They are seriously hard to keep entertained, we older folk are easy to please. Gen y, need their fix and gliding clubs need to appeal to gen y's "need to have it now" culture.

 

Just my thoughts

 

Enjoy the day men.

 

Keff

 

 

[Garry Morgan]

Hi Keff, Some clubs i here have a morning and afternoon shift so one is not at the field all day, a two seat self launch would solve this problem.My design is now a 18m 4 piece wing, one man can easly rig it with the new rigging adds for the wings. The construction for the wings which is a big job in glass will now go to bonding metal skins, foam ribs,, and a carbon spar.a fus thin shell that can be pulled in and out for the pilot size and then finish off the glass work. control systems in gliders are usally a mass of horns and bellcranks, i will make this a very simple system.A stearable nose wheel and working on making it retractable with the main wheel. an FX 79/140 airfoil is much as all the most modern ones like the DU84 . seems to be the next generation from the FX 67/ from the LS 6 and jantars. The 13.5m doesent look like it will get much interest in Australia as it does in other parts in the world, but a 40-45/1 glide will get you places, and the glide at higher speed ( 80-90kts) needs comprises . the motor at this stage will be a 28hp hirth as there is not much around that will fit. Designing a glider is a lot of work, but there is only realy about 6 aspects of the design that need to be worked on as far as shape and size. this may take another years work yet, but making it lower in building time is another task.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Garry, the self launch concept has real merit. Will we need a RA Aus certificate to fly it or GFA? Being self launch could I fly it with my PPL only?