RAA Safety-Training-Compliance Coordinator appointed

[Pete Greed]

Would be good if the CEO/General Manager could organise the board/committee of management to publish a Strategic Plan.

 

 

[drifterdriver]

Alfa Romeo you're not quite right regarding the CRC. There were two board members who put their hands up to chair the group.

 

 

[AlfaRomeo]

You are right of course, thanks for reminding me DD. The powers that were still manage to stifle any attempt at progress.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Terry, I don't think anyone has gone into bat for no process and poor governance.

 

But continuing to fight each new President like a kangaroo dog humping over thin air doesn't make a lot of sense when this President and the last one were clearly frustrated beyond endurance at having to get something going when the CASA train was coming for them at express speed.

 

I hadn't realised how close the train was or how quickly action would be required in the field but it's days and weeks, not months and years.

 

The CFI's have a massive task to do NOW to be finished by August - I feel sorry for Myles; it think it history might show he volunteered for a near impossible task in the timeframe, and this debate we've been having will be irrelevant when everyone realises the urgency - registrations all over again.

 

 

[terryc]

Terry, I don't think anyone has gone into bat for no process and poor governance.But continuing to fight each new President like a kangaroo dog humping over thin air doesn't make a lot of sense when this President and the last one were clearly frustrated beyond endurance at having to get something going when the CASA train was coming for them at express speed.

I hadn't realised how close the train was or how quickly action would be required in the field but it's days and weeks, not months and years.

 

The CFI's have a massive task to do NOW to be finished by August - I feel sorry for Myles; it think it history might show he volunteered for a near impossible task in the timeframe, and this debate we've been having will be irrelevant when everyone realises the urgency - registrations all over again.

You might well be right turbs and if Ed had come out and enlightened the members to the situation he would not have had so many unhappy members. No situation can arise that needs such urgent action. I mentioned a day or two but it could have taken an hour or two to comply with the constitution if need be so no excuse will do. What will do is a complete and details account of what transpired and that panic set in and mistakes were made which should have not happened. Since then processes have been put in place along theses lines so I and any future president can't make the same mistake again. BINGO. See that didn't hurt did it.

 

 

[terryc]

I just reread your post turbs and if the train was at break neck speed then it must have left the station some time ago. Why the bloody hell were we not told. Why put the cfi's in such a position. If you are at a loss and don't know what to do get out of the bloody way for someone who does. It's not rocket science.

 

Call in the big guns, all hands on deck and all that. Four hours with a couple of competent lay people [or a paid consultant] and map out a strategic plan to meet your targets. Don't do what has been done before and bubble along and fail. The problem has only grown big because of incompedence. My advice to Ed and the board is GET HELP.

 

 

[terryc]

and further to the above these guys are unpaid servants, they should not have to carry this burden alone even if it of their own making. GET HELP.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I just reread your post turbs and if the train was at break neck speed then it must have left the station some time ago. Why the bloody hell were we not told. Why put the cfi's in such a position. If you are at a loss and don't know what to do get out of the bloody way for someone who does. It's not rocket science.Call in the big guns, all hands on deck and all that. Four hours with a couple of competent lay people [or a paid consultant] and map out a strategic plan to meet your targets. Don't do what has been done before and bubble along and fail. The problem has only grown big because of incompedence. My advice to Ed and the board is GET HELP.

I think it's Ed that knows what has to be done, and the others where it's a bit overwhelming. LOL it's not four hours.

 

 

[Guest airsick]

Ed could take one simple action here to reassure members. There are many claims that this position would take months to fill. Indeed some have even claimed that it would take four months and Ed himself has said that it took months to complete comparable processes for the GM and Tech Manager positions just recently. If Myles' appointment to this position is temporary as we've been told and will expire in September then I would expect that it will be advertised immediately. Let's see how long that takes. While it won't correct the wrongs that have been done, if this process is commenced now it will go someway towards convincing me that we haven't been fed another line by a dictatorial president.

 

I sincerely hope I get convinced...

 

 

[terryc]

I think it's Ed that knows what has to be done, and the others where it's a bit overwhelming. LOL it's not four hours.

If you saw a strategic plan of how they intend to approach this particular issue then you wouldn't need to think ed knows what to do, you'll know ed knows what to do. We are entitled to no less. We are not so far apart on this turbs, I just feel we should not drop proper processes and procedures because we fill pressured. This is what processes and procedures are for.

 

 

[turboplanner]

If, a year ago Runciman had announced the need for a safety regime to all members, we would not be having this discussion because there would be many members conversant with the process and procedures who could have stepped in to help voluntarily with strategy etc. If the board members then had supported him, we also would not be discussing this.

 

But we knew the situation was dysfunctional.

 

Then it was too late. I've addressed proper processes, but it seems some people have got excited enough to convene the Supreme Court, but we are not in the Supreme Court.

 

The board members frittered around, there's now a job to be done, with enough time to do it, but there's no time to debate the brand of the toilet paper.

 

 

[Oscar]

I've been looking through the CASA Audit papers and nowhere does CASA 'require' a Safety-Training and Compliance Coordinator - unless my reading skills have deteriorated. What CASA does state, however, is the need for 'corrective action' to problems, and is actually defines the sort of corrective action that would be acceptable as 'devising and implementing a system to overcome the problem' (that's paraphrased). While the appointment of someone to actually achieve that is ONE possible way, it's not the ONLY possible way forward. That - presumably - Ed Herring felt he was pushed into a corner where he had to provide CASA with some tangible evidence that steps were being taken is a believable reason for his unilateral action; however I would be interested to know if arriving at that point was a result of simply no effective prior action by the Board to respond to the situation or a result of differences of opinion on the strategy to be used being the blockage?

 

If we had Ed and Steve Runciman saying 'just get the right person in to fix it' while other Board members were saying that there were other ways to skin the cat and an impasse had developed, why had this not been communicated to members? The February EGM minutes contain an awful lot of 'we were trying hard but not quite getting there' statements but no comprehensive detailing of the known strategic/ systemic problems requiring address nor any logical presentation of possible strategies that had / were being considered brought up for discussion. That, to me, presents a picture of arse-covering, not effective management.

 

It seems to me that to continue to operate, RAA must: 1) abide by its constitution (and if that needs revision then let it damn well happen, and quickly), and 2) operate in a manner that meets the technical and operational standards imposed upon it. Neither condition is optional, nor does one take more importance than the other. There has to be an entirely symbiotic relationship between meeting both requirements.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Oscar, I think the Audit papers mainly related to concerns about registrations.

 

I think if you check CASA for Safety and Risk Management policies and systems you'll find it is mandatory

 

 

[turboplanner]

Oscar, I did some digging, and I think CASA comply with ICAO Document 9859

 

which at Phase 1 3a specifies "establish a person/Office responsible for the administration and maintenance of the SMS

 

Here's the link

 

http://www2.icao.int/en/ism/Guidance Materials/SMM_3rd_Ed_Advance_R4_19Oct12_clean.pdf

 

Someone this morning thought it was a four hour job. I think setting up a policy would be closer to a year, and the delay by the dissident board members isn't going to make it easy for FTF's

 

 

[greybeard]

Some of you guys need to join a bowling club to find something else to winge about.

 

Either call yet another general meeting and put forward a motion to kick out everyone you don't want in your committee, change the constitution to allow a vote by every member before anyone can get out of bed in the morning, engage a QC for every member to provide legal argument.

 

Or, for the majority of people who are taking affront, pick up the telephone, actually talk to a human being, get even one fact, then start sprouting off.

 

Some of the discussion about the committee is reasoned and logical and has a basis in fact, far to much of the discussion is reminiscent of a bunch of school kids playing guess what I don't know. I'm pretty comfortable saying that most of you are involved in aviation, are mature, reasoned and can put together a logical argument / discussion. After all you mostly seem to be capable of aviating. How about it? Put the speculation aside, stick to facts, even try finding out a few, and put a fraction of the effort and passion from castigating anyone who doesn't ask your personal opinion before doing anything into moving forward. You never know maybe everyone, including the dastardly committee, is actually doing the best they can to forward RAA and it's members interests.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Oscar, this CASA link calls up ICAO Document 9859, so I'd suggest we need the Manager that's been appointed

 

http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_101001

 

 

[dodo]

Some of you guys need to join a bowling club to find something else to winge about.Or, for the majority of people who are taking affront, pick up the telephone, actually talk to a human being, get even one fact, then start sprouting off.

 

. How about it? Put the speculation aside, stick to facts, even try finding out a few, and put a fraction of the effort and passion from castigating anyone who doesn't ask your personal opinion before doing anything into moving forward. You never know maybe everyone, including the dastardly committee, is actually doing the best they can to forward RAA and it's members interests.

If the board ever told us anything, you advice would make sense. However, as usual, we get told nothing, and we find a little out via rumour and innuendo on a web forum.

 

Pathetic, isn't it?

 

But I don't understand why you blame the uniformed.

 

What about the board informing those they represent?

 

dodo

 

 

[greybeard]

If the board ever told us anything, you advice would make sense. However, as usual, we get told nothing, and we find a little out via rumour and innuendo on a web forum.Pathetic, isn't it?

 

But I don't understand why you blame the uniformed.

 

What about the board informing those they represent?

 

dodo

That's my point, "rumour and innuendo on a web forum" and an expectation that the board will involve all of the members in every thing they do.

 

Yes, there's a lot of areas that could be improved, but maybe try asking instead.

 

Here's a contact list for RAA. http://www.raa.asn.au/contact/

 

Communication works both ways. If enough people contacted their elected representatives and spoke to them, maybe there'd be a little less rumour and innuendo causing high blood pressure. You do acquire flight planning information don't you?

 

 

[dodo]

Communication works both ways.

Not in my experience.

 

You ring a board member, get partial, incomplete, or misleading information. Or none at all. And everyone has to do it individually. Neither efficient, nor effective.

 

You do acquire flight planning information don't you?

Yes. When I contact NAIPS, it responds. My board doesn't; or if it does, it is far less informative and accurate than NAIPS weather & NOTAMS

My point is the existing communication doesn't work.

 

The board don't listen, and don't inform.

 

dodo

 

 

[Captain]

For those that are interested, I advise that I have changed my position a little on this matter following a long discussion with Ed Herring last night, and taking Ed's advice in good faith, I am sad to say that I can now see some merit in one of Turbo's arguments.

 

In previous posts I have always advised that I have supported the creation of this position.

 

I am also aware that Steve Runciman pushed hard for such a position to be created but received resistance from the Board.

 

Ed has reported here and elsewhere that the CASA have pressed for such a position to be created. I therefore accept why he has acted swiftly, and I accept that he has done so in good faith & with noble intent, albeit outside of correct protocols.

 

My biggest issues are the reporting structure that will apply and the background of this appointment.

 

Ed confirmed that this position will report to the GM, will involve ~ 2 weeks/month working in the Canberra office, will parallel the Tech Manager and Ops Manager roles, and that the GM is preparing the Job Description at the present time. This therefore removes one of my concerns.

 

Ed has made it clear that the appointment of Myles Breitkreutz applies until September, and I can wear that if it is indeed NOT a "job for the boyz" and does not parallel the Tizzard appointment of a few years ago.

 

I think that Ed understands that the membership are a little gun-shy about unilateral action by the President and jobs-for-the-boyz and he assured me that this was not the case with this appointment.

 

The bottom line is that I have now altered my position to one of conditional support for Ed's actions, the conditions being that:

 

(1) The position be subject to an open recruiting effort by the September date, when Myles B and any other interested party should be invited to apply.

 

and (2) That the GM or his delegate undertake an evaluation of whether this role could perhaps be filled by a specialist Consultant, and the cost implications thereof when compared with the employment option.

 

Hope this assists the discussion.

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

For those that are interested, I advise that I have changed my position a little on this matter following a long discussion with Ed Herring last night ...

I think there are a hell of a lot that are interested ...

 

And the content of your discussion is all very well but when and how does Ed intend to tell the rest of us publicly so that he can be held to the agreement?

 

 

[dodo]

I think there are a hell of a lot that are interested ...And the content of your discussion is all very well but when and how does Ed intend to tell the rest of us publicly so that he can be held to the agreement?

The forum allows me to "agree" with your comment once.

 

I would prefer to give it a dozen ticks.

 

dodo

 

 

[Captain]

I think there are a hell of a lot that are interested ...And the content of your discussion is all very well but when and how does Ed intend to tell the rest of us publicly so that he can be held to the agreement?

G'day Heady,

 

This was not agreed with Ed last night. The above has evolved today as I and others considered it and thought it through.

 

As Turbo said a few posts back, I am not as worldly wise nor as quick as he.

 

If others can see any merit in this position, the Board will soon learn of it & I have emailed a copy of my post to Ed this afternoon.

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[turboplanner]

Well I guess he has to survive the coup attempt first, although what has emerged today puts any board member since June 2010 under somewhat of a cloud.

 

I do have a question for the board members though, particularly John McKeown and Jim Tatlock:

 

Is it true that when the board members voted a unanimous YES to support the President, did his request include a specific requirement/agreement to appoint a Safety/Training Manager?

 

 

[Chrism]

Terry, I don't think anyone has gone into bat for no process and poor governance.But continuing to fight each new President like a kangaroo dog humping over thin air doesn't make a lot of sense when this President and the last one were clearly frustrated beyond endurance at having to get something going when the CASA train was coming for them at express speed.

I hadn't realised how close the train was or how quickly action would be required in the field but it's days and weeks, not months and years.

 

The CFI's have a massive task to do NOW to be finished by August - I feel sorry for Myles; it think it history might show he volunteered for a near impossible task in the timeframe, and this debate we've been having will be irrelevant when everyone realises the urgency - registrations all over again.

Hi Turbz and others,

 

For the less experienced and informed (me), could someone provide an explanation of what CFI's will now be required to do by August and how that differs from the past? It would be helpful to gauge how much work needs to be done (or not) with the club i am involved with.

 

Great discussion. Thanks to all contributors

 

CM