RAA Safety-Training-Compliance Coordinator appointed

[motzartmerv]

Yes Keith. If we dont move forward within the framework of the constitution and the lAW then we are doomed regardless of the intentions of the exercize. No body is arguing against the idea, just the implementation.

 

rememebr we are overseen by a govt body. That govt body will gladly refuse your licence, endorsement, medical, application if ONE BOX IS NOT TICKED. Good luck explaining this latest move to the 'machine'

 

 

[turboplanner]

Unless as Flyerme is suggesting the "Machine" made us an offer we can't refuse

 

 

[Keith Page]

Good on Turbo for that point.

 

There are things in the industrial world there is no time for consulting and you got to make a move to do it, That the decision has to be made """now""" this was one, Ed was fenced in the corner.

 

That is why we have good thinkers at the front they must make decisions now no time for a dilly dally. They are in a the hot seat.

 

He made a brilliant decision with the best person for the job

 

Congratulations ED.

 

Thank you,

 

Regards,

 

Keith Page

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Oh yes. I forgot the clause in the constitution that says "due process only need be followed if time permits."

 

 

[motzartmerv]

So disappointed. The best idea ive heard of in along time. And its going to be overshadowed by the legalities.

 

 

[Chird65]

Oi! What is all this moaning about?...

The president has stepped up to the plate .....

 

Some thing must be correct we are back flying legaly.. ...

 

Interesting thing:-I have analised the moaners/complainers/negatives are way down south and it is the ones who want to dismember the QLD board numbers.

 

...

 

Keith Page.

Keith, I take some exception to your comments.

 

• The president should not make decisions on his own.
   
   
  
• We may be flying legally but what was done seems to be illegal.
   
   
  
• I don't care where a board member lives, they are responsible for their actions.
   
   
  

 

 

I want this organisation to succeed, but I want it done within the legal framework and be transparent.

 

Just as I don't know if the board all knew or if here was an effort to inform them; I don't know what made this imperative now rather than last week.

 

Chris

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

... and perhaps Ed knew if he put this decision up to the board members he would be shot down, the indecision would drag on and the secrecy would drag on.

Unfortunately, as I read it, this suggests that if you're the newly appointed President you should assume you're all-powerful and it's perfectly OK to ignore proper procedure and make a completely autonomous and non-constitutional appointment of anyone you want, and equally autonomously create a paid position for them. We used to call it Nepotism.

 

I have no idea whether Myles will be good at/for the position or not, but it certainly puts a very ugly question mark over his motivation for resigning on Tuesday with this announced on Friday.

 

There are things in the industrial world there is no time for consulting and you got to make a move to do it, That the decision has to be made """now""" this was one, Ed was fenced in the corner....

This isn't the industrial world, it's supposed to be a democratic club. There's no evidence there wasn't time for consulting, nor that anyone was 'fenced into a corner'. I've worked closely with CASA over a 20yr period and I can assure all that they wouldn't put themselves in a position where they could be criticised for forcing an outcome if it was contrary to proper governance. Ed simply hasn't done his due diligence and therefore isn't aware of the limited extent of his powers. Sadly we would appear to have another mug-dictator on our hands. I fear his first action will forever be tainted.

 

 

[Keith Page]

Hi Chirds65

 

The modern day world is letting us down. I work in an industry where everything must be correct and it is dying quickly because of political correctness/transparent.

 

With this transparent thing it is relevant in the ideal world, however when you are looking down a barrel of a gun there is no time to be politicaly correct, one must do something on the spot.

 

AND We must step in behind the fixer and help fix the situation after the event not find where the actions were wrong, one poor sole has to stand out in the front he is the one who cops the brunt of the impact.

 

Ed.. needs some kindness and help he had to make that decision in a jiff.

 

In the mean time keep arguing.

 

I will just wait and help Ed when I get the call.

 

Reagrds,

 

Keith Page

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Fixing needs porpper, lawful, compliant, governance. Do you honestly believe this is going to 'fix' anything?

 

 

[facthunter]

ED posted on this forum some time back and It didn't inspire confidence in him. (That's an understatement) I would love to support the show. I am still a member although I can not find many reasons to remain one. Of course there are a lot of hurdles and complexity in being the President. OUR fate is in their hands as far as RAAus goes, so just saying "I" take this decision upon myself etc,( although it sounds gutsy) especially with the track record we have , and the situation we are in , is crazy. Even in medicine you get a second opinion if it's serious. The board have responsibilities extending to each member. How can those people exercise their role if they are not involved? We have been down this same road before. Nev

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

ED posted on this forum some time back and It didn't inspire confidence in him. (That's an understatement) I would love to support the show. I am still a member although I can not find many reasons to remain one. Of course there are a lot of hurdles and complexity in being the President. OUR fate is in their hands as far as RAAus goes, so just saying "I" take this decision upon myself etc,( although it sounds gutsy) especially with the track record we have , and the situation we are in , is crazy. Even in medicine you get a second opinion if it's serious. The board have responsibilities extending to each member. How can those people exercise their role if they are not involved? We have been down this same road before. Nev

The power of a collective decision is the collective part.

 

Middo ringing around board members one at a time, and presumably in order of those they know will rubberstamp first down to those that might ask questions and never getting to those that might reject, until they have 50% of them accepting the position is a complete missuse of the intent behind board decisions. Ideally the board online forum allows the motion to be put and all board members get to post views and questions and then finally vote in full knowledge of others input. What we have happening is a completely wrong. Those board members who might rightly say "Lets play devils advocate and ask what when and why and follow on consequences" never get the opportunity to and we are the poorer for it.

 

I will move a motion at the next AGM (Our next public meeting) that board voting must never occur until all board members are informed and we get positive acknowledgement that a motion requiring their consideration has been placed before the board. The email from John McKeown and another that I saw from another board member made it perfectly clear that not all board members were made aware of this action before it occurred.

 

What we have now is not collaborative. It probably saved time but was that time well saved? What is it that is driving this must act immediately requirement"

 

 

[facthunter]

The airforce used to have an anti procrastination point of view. Goes something like "MAKE A decision man. I don't care IF it's WRONG but don't just stand there!.". Nev

 

PS ...I was never in the airforce, so I can still think, OK? Though I flew with plenty who had been. Nev

 

 

[Chird65]

...With this transparent thing it is relevant in the ideal world, however when you are looking down a barrel of a gun there is no time to be politicaly correct, one must do something on the spot.

AND We must step in behind the fixer and help fix the situation after the event not find where the actions were wrong, one poor sole has to stand out in the front he is the one who cops the brunt of the impact.

 

...

Hi Keith,

 

 

I live in a world where people hide behind “I had to do this because I was looking down the barrel of a gun". Rarely does that prove to be true. I deal with large corporate, not for profits, owners corporate and personal legal cases.

 

 

I am reading that you have information that is not available to me, i.e. that there was some imperative. I will wait for the full explanation and at that point it will be transparent. I am far from PC and call it how I see it. If someone is not honest or transparent then they bring it on themselves when others put motives to their actions.

 

 

I am actually glad there are those that are willing to help our board. We don’t all have the right time or skill to be board members. I get the impression that the board does not always accept the help on offer and makes excuses that do not sit right to me for justifying those decisions.

 

 

Chris

 

 

[turboplanner]

That's fair enough Chird; the explanation hopefully will be forthcoming soon, unless he did it knowing that SOMEONE had to overcome the obstructionist secrecy of board members which we've all been complaining about for two years.

 

 

[Keith Page]

The airforce used to have an anti procrastination point of view. Goes something like "MAKE A decision man. I don't care IF it's WRONG but don't just stand there!.". NevPS ...I was never in the airforce, so I can still think, OK? Though I flew with plenty who had been. Nev

So Very True Facthunter

 

Have a quick think and do something as you could have a winner.

 

Sitting on your a.... and doing nothing you are backing a looser. Absolute guarantee.

 

Has anyone have Ed's side of issue? YES/NO

 

Has anyone have Myles's side of the issue? YES/NO

 

Some people wish to run around and be disruptive and be finding more problems, what about coming up with a solution or two.

 

Regards,

 

Keith Page.

 

 

[Captain]

Has anyone have Ed's side of issue? YES/NOSome people wish to run around and be disruptive and be finding more problems, what about coming up with a solution or two.

I have written to Ed and the Board 1st thing this morning. Ed replied quickly with a good holding email as he is busy at his work.

 

A solution or 2 is simple. (1) Run RAA in accordance with the Constitution and Articles. (2) Communicate efficiently with & within the Board like hundred of other organisations are able to do. (3) Support the staff & let the staff get on with running the place while monitoring them via the GM, (4) Kill the practice of Executive decisions and retrospective Board approvals. and (5) Make visionary policy decisions like Boards are supposed to.

 

I know that won't assist your conspiracy theories, Keith, but you are defending the indefensible that was discussed at length by the members at the EGM on Feb 9th. Were you there on that day?

 

 

[facthunter]

Don't bother replying to me Keith. What I am saying is good for the outcome. You don't really read what is said and you shoot the messenger . I'm entitled to express my views here and I don't appreciate your insults. I've already lost more money than I want to think about and time goes on as if it doesn't matter with this fiasco.

 

For a solution how about learning the lessons of history and going by the bloody rules? I think THAT is what the members expect. nev

 

 

[AlfaRomeo]

Keith, How can you possibly assert that a couple of days would have made the slightest difference to this imperative? If Ed had written his proposal up on the Board Forum and asked his colleagues for an urgent vote within 48 hours he may well have been given the go-ahead to create the position and install Myles in it. Two days is not an eternity unless you are two years old. This intemperate behavior smacks of toddler reasoning ability. We are entitled to better from our elected Board.

 

Now that Ed has created the position, RA-Aus is stuck with it in perpetuity. Could you imagine going to CASA in October and saying well, we tried a Safety Training Coordinator but it didn't work so we got rid of the position. Impossible.

 

This function will absorb of the order of $200,000 each year of members funds. Ed has made a commitment of $1 million over a five year period without seeking approval from the people we elected to make those decisions. Who died and made Ed the only person in Australia who knows what RA-Aus needs to kepp CASA off its back?

 

In the proposal to the Board the other small item that a good manager would include is how it is to be paid for. Ed could have gone to CASA and asked them to up their contribution from $100k to $300k. It is possible that they would have see that as a positive step and agreed. But, because he acted precipitously, that opportunity has passed and the Board will now have to get the $200k p.a. from the members by upping the fees up from $185 to $205 p.a. to cover the cost. I'm not complaining about the fee hike just that none of these proper business considerations were looked at. Just Ed shooting from the hip rather than acting in a business-like manner as he said needed to happen.

 

How would Ed's Board (in his non-RA-Aus life) feel if, as the General Manager, Ed had spent the equivalent amount above his financial delegation from his Board and above his Budget? I doubt they would be saying things like "gutsy move, Ed". In my experience they would be saying "Don't come Monday!". Why should it be any different a response here? Ed argued loudly at the EGM last February 9th that RA-Aus has to be run on a more business-like basis. Yet, his first action has more in common with an African dictator than the Chair of the RA-Aus Board.

 

I don't doubt the bona fides of Ed's intent here but it has shown an incredible breach of approved procedure. Cutting corners is exactly what was done by certain Tech Managers and CEO's in the past and what sent RA-Aus into the spiral dive that we are currently "enjoying".

 

Is it really too much to ask that The President, the Executive and the Board abide by the Law and the Constitution? I get the impression that half the Board have never read the Constitution and the ones who have happily ignore it.

 

Keith, would you support a new Constitution that says the President can rule by decree and that he does not have to consult the Board on any matter and is not subject to any restrictions that would otherwise be imposed by the Constitution, The Deed of Agreement with CASA or the Associations Incorporation Act?

 

 

[pmccarthy]

A board should have a chairman. A chairman is " first among equals" and has no independent decision making powers. A president is different and there are times when presidential decisions are required. I don't know the background to this decision but accept that it may have been essential, in any case I give Ed credit for acting in an environment that has seen a lot of paralysis. We need a proper board, of experienced directors, but until we get one we are an association with a President and amateur directors and a divided and cantankerous membership.

 

 

[Spriteah]

Oi! What is all this moaning about?Congratulation and thank you .. Ed..

The president has stepped up to the plate as soon as he has stepped on to the plate the bagging has started, come on boys and girls have some respect.

 

Some thing must be correct we are back flying legaly.. Just by reading what you mob type, I can work out what is correct all can not be bad and nasty.

 

If the same amount of effort is exerted goind forward than on the trumped up negatives we would be on Mars.

 

"MORE EFFORT ON KEEPING THE HOUSE UP THAN PULLING IT DOWN"

 

Interesting thing:-I have analised the moaners/complainers/negatives are way down south and it is the ones who want to dismember the QLD board numbers.

 

I see regularly we do not have a choice to choose who we want to have on the board. "WHO WANTS TO BE ON THE BOARD???"

 

I must thank Myles for has contribution to the movement - he has been there since the Ultralight Federation.

 

Just side stepping from all the "They should be doings" just imagine the toing and froing with CASA in the conception days.

 

Thanks for that Myles, just imagine the frustration.

 

Myles is not lost because there will be some behind the scenes tooing and frooing and he well respected and who else is qualified for that task.

 

We must all realise when there are intense negotiations in progress.. most of the tooing and frooing must be kept quiet just imagine if the he said she said bitts got out the missinterpretation would be beyond any ones imagineation

 

Another interesting fact has been highlighted, The moaners/complainers I can not see where they have put their hands up for board positions, yes I know it is eaier to sit back and moan and belly ache, getting off their a.s.k and doing something is the very hard work. WE SIT AND WHINGE AT THEM

 

That will our fun for a while.

 

Thank you Myles.

 

Thank you Ed.

 

Regards,

 

Keith Page.

Keith, You are so far off the mark. Board Members from 3 States including Queensland have emailed a complaint to the full board.

 

 

[dodo]

Keith,

 

I would take particular issue with the following

 

"Interesting thing:-I have analised the moaners/complainers/negatives are way down south and it is the ones who want to dismember the QLD board numbers."

 

Who wants to dismember the QLD baord members, either physically or figuratively? QLD representation seems fine to me. I don't know where you dreamt or drank up that weird conspiracy.

 

Secondly, as a "southerner", I can sympathise with the legitimate desire of a North Queenslander to analise all southerners, but I believe you have only achieved a poor analysis, which is rather different to a comprehensive analisation.

 

I am quite certain I have not been analised.

 

dodo

 

 

[paulh]

Hopefully the second round of the State of Origin footy will teach those nasty bushwacking dang southerners a thing or two!!

 

oops, just realised cane toads can't fly.................maybe those cockroaches do have some advantages over us northerners

 

 

[airangel]

Good God Guys, Give them time to do want you want, instead of throwing bricks all the time.

 

 

[Powerin]

Is it really too much to ask that The President, the Executive and the Board abide by the Law and the Constitution? I get the impression that half the Board have never read the Constitution and the ones who have happily ignore it.

Keith, would you support a new Constitution that says the President can rule by decree and that he does not have to consult the Board on any matter and is not subject to any restrictions that would otherwise be imposed by the Constitution, The Deed of Agreement with CASA or the Associations Incorporation Act?

The constitution does NOT require a vote from all Board members for decisions that need to be made between Board Meetings. The Executive (President, Secretary and Treasurer) is given power to act, especially in an emergency. The constitution is silent on how this achieved...eg a vote by exec members. Ironically the Treasurer himself could and should not have had any influence on this decision due to conflict of interest. So that leaves the President and Secretary. In a tied vote the President of any organisation is often given a deciding vote. I think if the President did make this decision unilaterally he is skating close to the edge rather than being blatantly in breach of the constitution.

The President has made it clear the decision, the position and the new employee will be reviewed at the next full Board meeting, as it has to be.

 

I believe the RAAus has been in breech of the "Deed of Agreement" with CASA for some time with regard to aircraft registrations and safety and that some funding from CASA was either being or about to be withheld.

 

We have been complaining for some time about the tainted culture and mismanagement in the RAAus and calling for action. If the President is indeed trying to bypass the entrenched culture and carry out decisive actions to raise the association from the ashes then I'm willing to wait and see what happens. At this stage anything is better than drifting along from crisis to crisis as we have been. If it all goes bad then we have the power, as always, to vote Board members out at the next election.

 

 

[Oscar]

While at first blush it certainly appears that due procedure has been bypassed in this matter, since we do not appear to be in possession of all the relevant facts it seems to me to be a wee bit precipitate to simply march Mr. Herring out in the cold morning sun and give him the time to ask those who face him to 'shoot straight, you bastards'.

 

It is surely worth the time, for the sake of the organisation, to query whether the action Ed has taken was forced - or apparently forced - on him by circumstances. If indeed that is so, then I'd like to know the following:

 

1) What advice (if any) did he seek, and what advice was he given as to options and procedures for dealing with the situation?

 

2) Has the situation (if there was one) been recognised as a problem before this and allowed to become a crisis by the inaction of his predecessors? If that is the case, then I personally would be holding my righteous anger against those who did nothing - and if it has been known for some months now, then those who certainly gave the appearance in February of using their energies and RAA resources in attempts to obfuscate the February General Meeting / drum up support / utilise legal resources to defend their positions etc. instead of moving to address the problem, would be the prime target of my very considerable ire.

 

The above is not intended as any form of 'excuse' for the way Ed Herring has handled this matter, but an attempt to remind people that in a swamp full of alligators... If RAA is to move forwards at all, it simply has to learn the lessons of history so as not to repeat them, and one cannot learn the lessons unless one has all the facts to hand.