Western Australia Ultralight Fatality

[David Isaac]

Lyle the crazy part of the law is that you can actually be booked at 0.05 you are only safe at 0.049 and below. Quite misleading in my opinion, because all the advertising campaigns state that 0.05 is the legal limit. Go figure that one.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Didn't know that, David. Have to reduce my drinking!

 

 

[Keenaviator]

Lyle the crazy part of the law is that you can actually be booked at 0.05 you are only safe at 0.049 and below. Quite misleading in my opinion, because all the advertising campaigns state that 0.05 is the legal limit. Go figure that one.

That's interesting Dave. Where is it said you are safe below 0.05%? It's pretty simple really; if you decide to drink then also decide not to drive.

If your aircraft's stall speed is 50 then is it safe at 49 or 51 for that matter?

 

Regards, Laurie.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

I agree with you Laurie but that is a social choice rather than a legislative one.

 

In fact as a social choice I choose to drink very infrequently. I look at much of the nightly reported mayhem on the news and much of it relates to inappropriate use of alcohol and I do not want to support an industry that sells Mayhem in a bottle.

 

The choices you talk of can only be made when you are of sound mind, Alcohol robs you of sound mind and the right choices are often not made until there is no sound mind left.

 

Look at that kid in Kings cross that was king hit and killed......The hitter was obviously wrong, yet affected by alcohol..... Its a shame in my view that the alcohol industry is so strong that it would take a political party that was prepared to suicide to legislate against it, and from prohibition in the USA we saw that a flat out ban doesn't work.......I feel sorry for the police and medical drs and ambos that have to clean up after the mess and those such as the kid and relatives above who were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

There has to be a better middle ground somewhere

 

Andy

 

 

[Patrick Normoyle]

David Isaac, I think it says to stay below .05, so what you are saying is right, just like the airspace boundary issue. A pilot flying at 1500" under the controlled airspace step on 1500" may think he is doing it right, but it says LL as in lower limit, so he should be below that, and has he included an amount for error in his altimeter ? When was his ALT last checked to be within 200ft ? I am with Keenaviator, if you are going to fly -drink after you have finished, trust me it tastes sooo much better when you can sit back and relax with a cold one and a chat about how great a pilot you are. I have five kids, I want to see them all learn to fly and live smart.

 

 

[David Isaac]

That's interesting Dave. Where is it said you are safe below 0.05%? It's pretty simple really; if you decide to drink then also decide not to drive.If your aircraft's stall speed is 50 then is it safe at 49 or 51 for that matter?

 

Regards, Laurie.

Good pick up Laurie, being 'safe' was license I was using to imply you are 'safe' from getting booked.

I subscribe to the 'if you drink ... don't drive ' idea as well.

 

But like most things in life involving regulation, there is that arbitrary line in the sand and it depends on what side of the line you stand as to weather you are in trouble or not (in theory).

 

Oh and BTW in your example ... whether you are 49 or 51 knts will determine the sink rate ... LOL

 

 

[Keenaviator]

Thanks Andy, I could have put it better. There is a middle ground and in Victoria that is not to exceed the prescribed content ( full licence holders in private cars and motorcycles 0.05 grams of alcohol per 28 litres of exhaled air).

 

Regarding the decision to drive, that should be made before the drinking.

 

I think we haves drifted a bit off thread!

 

Cheers Laurie

 

 

[paulh]

Thanks Andy, I could have put it better. There is a middle ground and in Victoria that is not to exceed the prescribed content ( full licence holders in private cars and motorcycles 0.05 grams of alcohol per 28 litres of exhaled air). Regarding the decision to drive, that should be made before the drinking.

 

I think we haves drifted a bit off thread!

 

Cheers Laurie

Perhaps not completely drifted of safety issues, I was at a very popular well run fly in where a nearby pilot drank to excess in my view ie stumbling about, loud and obnoxious etc., he flew home next day in his four seater, wife on board. Highly likely still had a highish BAC but more than 8 hrs from last drink, never heard any crash reported so must have gotten home ok. He may have technically been legal.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...There has to be a better middle ground somewhere...

Andy

Good point, Andy. I believe some American states grant a license to drive on the roads at 15, but won't allow drinking until 21. May be the right way around. We give both rights at about the same time. Dumb, especially when it's well known that the male brain is not fully formed and functional until about age 25. (Mine is a work in progress)

 

 

[David Isaac]

...... (Mine is a work in progress) ...

He he he

 

 

[Patrick Normoyle]

Don't forget there are three parts to the rule " fitness for duty / flight " when it comes to alcohol and drugs. 8 hours from last drink to first aviation related activity ( refuelling or daily inspection etc ) as well as being below .05 at the same time. Then there is every pilot in command responsibility as being generally fit for flight.

 

 

[M61A1]

On the drinking topic......We had a work related (defence aviation) drug and alcohol management lecture a few years ago by a well qualified doctor. According to him, there is evidence (medical studies) that the bit between 0.02(from memory) and 0.05 can be more dangerous the most people realise. Inasmuch as when you are properly drunk, you can easily tell that your motor skills are seriously compromised, but after the first drink, it is the decision making skills which go first, but is not realised because your motor skills are still quite good. He did back this up with lots of neurosciency stuff about frontal lobes and how alcohol affect different parts of your brain and the processes within.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Don't forget there are three parts to the rule " fitness for duty / flight " when it comes to alcohol and drugs. 8 hours from last drink to first aviation related activity ( refuelling or daily inspection etc ) as well as being below .05 at the same time. Then there is every pilot in command responsibility as being generally fit for flight.

The limit for aviation related activity is 0.02 (grams in 210 litres of breath)

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[facthunter]

Especially if you are fatigued as well. I think also It depends what you are used to. If you haven't been drinking for a while it works better. You almost become a one pot screamer. That's how to get value out of your drinking dollar.. IF you can't go a few AFD's ( Alcohol Free Days) , you should realise you are getting dependent on it. Then ONE drink is too many and a dozen is not enough.. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

M61A1, I'd agree with that, I've watched myself very carefully and realised that some of my precision was going off.

 

However it is a small amount vs just not recognising instant action is required.

 

I'd say this is why zero blood alcohol is required for youths, bus drivers and truck drivers. It would be interesting to check the truck statistics before the zero rule before the Fatigue Management regulations, and after to see if there are any bumps there.

 

 

[facthunter]

Another factor that compounds it is lack of oxygen (Hypoxia.) Smoking makes it worse too because the CO makes the blood unable to hold oxygen. Effects can start below 8,000'.. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

Sorry to interrupt FH but I've just found out you've got Trevor Dance as the Palmer Party Candidate in McEwen. Don't know how the party will poll but Trevor's one tough cookie.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Random Breath Testing, exercised by police on any motorist at any time without need to show reason.

Thank you David,

 

I thought that it might be something to do with our system relating to commercial road transport drivers wghere there are rigidly enforced regs with regard to how long a driver may drive before a rest stop, all recorded on a personal digital tachograph card which has to be uploaded and checked at each end of the trip.

 

British Police have ( sort of ) had the ability to stop and Breath Test any driver for alcohol consumption for many years, even though some of the reasons for stopping someone were quite often superfluous, BUT it had the desired effect to a large extent. But as has been mentioned before in this thread ( and sorry for the slight drift ) that driver error bought on by tiredness was a major factor in a very large number of Road Transport Accidents. We do still get those but in the main, they seem to be caused by foreign truck drivers who try to push their luck.

 

Phil

 

 

[kaz3g]

CASA checked the flying schools and a few loose locals at YSHT during the week. All were breath-tested and swabbed for drugs and all ok.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Good point, Andy. I believe some American states grant a license to drive on the roads at 15, but won't allow drinking until 21. May be the right way around. We give both rights at about the same time. Dumb, especially when it's well known that the male brain is not fully formed and functional until about age 25. (Mine is a work in progress)

 

When Ahhh Waz in Alabama layast. . . . . They told me that you could drive an Artomobeeele at the age of FOURTEEN. . . . ! There are two ways of looking at this, 1) If you start driving cars at 14, then by the time you get to 21, ( If you live that long. . .) then you have SEVEN YEARS experience driving cars WHEREAS. . . 2) . . .If you don't drive 'til age 17 or 18. . . . well,. . .no further comment needed.

 

My brain was ( with the obvious evidence of hindsight . . . . ) not fully formed until I reached the dizzy age of 32.

 

Evidenced by many memories of saying things like, "Nah,. . .jump on board,. . . I'll fly you there for nothing,. . .I'm going near there anyway. . . ." and paying $40,000 for a block of coastal land in Queensland which didn't belong to the organisation who were selling it. . . . ( ! ) [ amongst other things. . . ]

 

The Wife said that this was poetic justice,. . . as some of that money had been earned doing dodgy flying jobs,. . .( no details available, I've forgotten now. . .! )

 

Ce la vie. . . . .

 

( Sorry if I've spelled that French bit incorrectly Clive, but I think it means something like, . . . That's life Bruce. . . )

 

Wistful Phil.

 

 

[metalman]

When Ahhh Waz in Alabama layast. . . . . They told me that you could drive an Artomobeeele at the age of FOURTEEN. . . . ! There are two ways of looking at this, 1) If you start driving cars at 14, then by the time you get to 21, ( If you live that long. . .) then you have SEVEN YEARS experience driving cars WHEREAS. . . 2) . . .If you don't drive 'til age 17 or 18. . . . well,. . .no further comment needed.My brain was ( with the obvious evidence of hindsight . . . . ) not fully formed until I reached the dizzy age of 32.

 

Evidenced by many memories of saying things like, "Nah,. . .jump on board,. . . I'll fly you there for nothing,. . .I'm going near there anyway. . . ." and paying $40,000 for a block of coastal land in Queensland which didn't belong to the organisation who were selling it. . . . ( ! ) [ amongst other things. . . ]

 

The Wife said that this was poetic justice,. . . as some of that money had been earned doing dodgy flying jobs,. . .( no details available, I've forgotten now. . .! )

 

Ce la vie. . . . .

 

( Sorry if I've spelled that French bit incorrectly Clive, but I think it means something like, . . . That's life Bruce. . . )

 

Wistful Phil.

If I ever find myself near Staffordshire with a bottle of whiskey in hand ,I'm coming to your place to share it,,,,,I reckon you'd be full of stories ;-)

 

 

[Phil Perry]

If I ever find myself near Staffordshire with a bottle of whiskey in hand ,I'm coming to your place to share it,,,,,I reckon you'd be full of stories ;-)

Actually Metal. . . .

 

I think that the thirty years has now expired on the O.S.A. , a version of which I once was asked to sign. . . ( Official Secrets Act. . . ) so now I COULD possibly recount some funny stories without fear of having to run away and hide in Equador,. . . ., BUT,. . . regrettably, I've forgotten most of them ! But you have to be very careful with all things Australian methinks, . . . I mean. . .A Prime Minister was booted out of office VERY recently there I gather, just because she had small breasts and large thighs,. . . ? [ Mind you,. . .she WAS born in WALES. . .]. . . maybe there were other issues involved in this too, but since I don't get most of your political news, I don't really know. . . . STILL,. . .it pays to be careful ? AND. . . .You probably wouldn't like Staffordshire much,. . .it rains a lot and has a large number of closed down airfields and is under the jurisdiction of the European Parliaments. . . . . . ( Very negative place. . .)

 

Phil

 

 

[winsor68]

From the Sport Aviation Self Administration Handbook 2010:"As part of the RAAOs’ Industry Risk Profile, the supply of and proficiency in safety data and information is key. Therefore RAAOs are to ensure that appropriate safety data and information management processes exist and provide CASA with a safety profile of their sector via six monthly reports.

 

This is to include:

 

• Accident and incident occurrences, including frequency and severity

 

• Accident and incident investigation and findings

 

• Records that safety analysis has been communicated to members."

 

Does RA-Aus do any of this?

 

I have not seen any evidence of the third item - "safety analysis [being] communicated to members".

 

DWF

From Sport Pilot Magazine...August 2011

"Mick Poole's final homily to Ra-Aus.

 

We have introduced Accident Investigator Training and have trained over 40 investigators in the past 3 years."

 

 

[winsor68]

What DWF found here could be the answer to getting aviation-based investigations of RA aircraft crashes.As we know, the present situation is that Sate and Federal Police control the investigation and prepare a brief for the Coroner, whose primary responsibility is to determine the cause of death, not necessarily the cause of the crash, which might be outside his/her legal parameters.

 

Recreational Aviation Australia's expert may be called in to provide specialist advice to the investigating police, but they, except in rare cases, will not release any details of that brief.

 

So the result is a cone of silence relating to the crash, and no learning sequence for us, which could prevent a similar incident, which ironically is one of the duties of the Coroner.

 

From time to time on this site, some people have posted anecdotal information that "RAA was offered the opporunity for ATSB to investigate all fatalities but didn't pick it up"

 

What DWF found is an IMPERATIVE from CASA, probably part of the Deed, which RAA is in default on, so something has to be done and fast.

 

Except in this case it's a catch 22 - Recreational Aviation Australia Inc. does not have the legal powers that ATSB has.

 

Given the very high cost of getting ATSB to investigate RAA fatalities, my preference would be for the Federal Government to provide the investigative and reporting powers that ATSB has.

 

Recreational Aviation Australia Inc investigators, with their specialist knowledge of Ultralight aircraft dynamics and performance could then investigate at crash sites and publicly report aviation based lessons to be learned from the fatality.

 

Because RAA are in default of CASA requirements, there is an urgency, but it is also a golden opportunity.

IMO based upon my reading of the regulatory requirement the key part of the SMS is the release of safety information to members...the framework was set up by 2011...

Ra Aus did if I recall release some reports previously.

 

 

[M61A1]

Actually Metal. . . .I But you have to be very careful with all things Australian methinks, . . . I mean. . .A Prime Minister was booted out of office VERY recently there I gather, just because she had small breasts and large thighs,. . . ? [ Mind you,. . .she WAS born in WALES. . .]. . . maybe there were other issues involved in this too, but since I don't get most of your political news, I don't really know. . . .

 

Phil

I thought she got the a*se because she was hopeless and only the hopeless liked her.....but Australian politics is about hanging on to power (they put Kev back because they thought more people like him)....absolutely nothing to do with good governance.