Western Australia Ultralight Fatality

[turboplanner]

In the UK, the Police always attend an air accident. but have absolutely NOTHING to do with any sort of investigation of cause, and our coroner can only complete a case when advised of the probable cause by the A.A.I.B. and no other organisation.

Now THAT would make a critical difference in Australia, where in the past the focus of some (very small sample) Coroners has got off the track and while finding the cause of death has caused others to miss the cause of the accident.

 

Funding will for sure come up as a big brick wall, so anything you can find out over time would be very helpful.

 

 

[jamel]

"Will they do anything? Of course not! Some nice policeman who most likely doesn't know a rudder from an elevator will prepare a report for a coroner who wouldn't know a stall from a flare who then will most likely find that the poor gentleman died from a severe impact.

 

My condolences to his family, they are unlikely to get any closure from the process.

Perhaps a bit emotive jamel. Some of the doomsayers would crap themselves to learn that we, in WA, have at least one dedicated and experienced current RAA-GAA pilot/aircraft owner/career copper (who obviously is multi-experienced in forensic everything), and...guess what....he's been CASA-schooled in the requirements of aircraft accident investigation and reporting! So there already exists a modicum of ability within RAA ranks to at least participate in (if not conduct) the establishment of reports re: these unfortunate fatalities. With RAA being so far behind the 8-Ball in so many respects at present, only the good Lord knows how long it might be before the system is modified to allow us to be involved in our own house-keeping. Despite all of the above, I too offer sincere condolences to the Pilot's family and friends.

 

My frustration and sarcasm was directed at the process, not the police and the coroner, they do largely a thankless job in trying circumstances and are experts in their field, but is there a better way?

 

At no time did I mention or ask anything about RAA members! I happen to believe, like it seems you may, that certain ones like you have described would be the ideal ones to carry out an informal investigation for the benefit of members.

 

Are they ever involved? If so where are their conclusions?

 

A one sentence summary " it is likely the aircraft lost airspeed on the turn onto final and stalled" would mean far more than 60 pages of waffle if the investigation even got that far! It would likely make us all think that if I turn low and slow, uncoordinated and cross controlled, I also am likely to be looking at the rabbit burrows from the wrong perspective!

 

All the SMS books sitting in the flight office are not going to make one iota of difference to fatalities if we don't maintain the basic rules that we were hopefully taught.

 

Even the police call in the experts! If there is a fatality on the highway they call in the accident investigation squad, if there is a heist at the local bank they call in the crime squad, if is an ultralight crash do they call in someone who might know something about it?

 

There seems to be a hush, hush culture in the movement about accidents.

 

Recently two poor souls lost their lives in a trike that went down into a lake on the central coast NSW. The silence has been deafening. It was of particular interest to me because I was recently endorsed and am inexperienced with just over 130 hours on type. I want to learn everything I can. Witness reports among other things described a large bang and the the aircraft then spiralling into the water. It was recovered with the left rear wheel spat missing. I puzzled over the likely cause for ages. I am lucky to have easy access to one of the trike pioneers from the 70,s. He could tell me immediately what the most probable scenario was.

 

Now the scary thing is that there are lots of trikes flying with the exact same configuration, the pilots oblivious to the need to perhaps check their equipment.

 

Wouldn't disseminating this kind of information be logical?

 

I agree we should be involved in our own housekeeping! but I very much doubt filling offices with safety manuals is going to make any difference.

 

Now I will go back to minding my own business!!

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Correct there Jamel, We are being treated like mushrooms in this matter and have been for some years now, it simply is not right.

 

Additionally as time marches on any lessons to be learnt from the many past accidents will be lost without the evidence or valuable lessons being gathered in a timely fashion.

 

Surely any new position for an SMS person would involve gathering and distributing these invaluable lessons to other UL users in a timely fashion, for the ongoing safety of us all !................Maj...

 

 

[jamel]

Correct there Jamel, We are being treated like mushrooms in this matter and have been for some years now, it simply is not right.Additionally as time marches on any lessons to be learnt from the many past accidents will be lost without the evidence or valuable lessons being gathered in a timely fashion.

 

Surely any new position for an SMS person would involve gathering and distributing these invaluable lessons to other UL users in a timely fashion, for the ongoing safety of us all !................Maj...

I certainly hope you are right Maj , although my experience with SMS leads me to think that we are more likely to get a new regulation enforcing painting the first 15 cm of each propeller blade with fluro paint

 

 

[turboplanner]

I certainly hope you are right Maj , although my experience with SMS leads me to think that we are more likely to get a new regulation enforcing painting the first 15 cm of each propeller blade with fluro paint

You forgot the yellow line around the aircraft.

 

The one I want is how the instructor assesses that a pilot can immediately put an aircraft into a glide if the engine unexpectedly stops .

 

 

[sain]

The one I want is how the instructor assesses that a pilot can immediately put an aircraft into a glide if the engine unexpectedly stops .

You mean like in the current, and for that matter past, training curriculum that everybody got assessed on to get their RA-AUS certs in the first place? or like you get tested on every bi-annual flight review?

 

Do you feel your instructors havn't made an accurate assessment of your ability to put the aircraft into a glide? and if you do feel that way, why the hell havn't you done something about it? go practice for gods sake. Its your responsibility to be a competent pilot.

 

 

[turboplanner]

You mean like in the current, and for that matter past, training curriculum that everybody got assessed on to get their RA-AUS certs in the first place? or like you get tested on every bi-annual flight review?Do you feel your instructors havn't made an accurate assessment of your ability to put the aircraft into a glide? and if you do feel that way, why the hell havn't you done something about it? go practice for gods sake. Its your responsibility to be a competent pilot.

From my recollection about 6 to 8 pilots in recent times have let a perfectly good aircraft drop into a stall or spin killing themselves and their passenger.

 

They have not reacted instantly, subconsciously, to save their lives.

 

They never reached the second critical point where they had the opportunity to hit fences, trees etc at short-field speed and maybe break arms, legs at the most.

 

If we could achieve the first reaction across the board, our fatality rate would drop to insignificant, and there would be less families in that horrible never-ending distress.

 

On this forum, on a number of occasions quite a few posters have made it obvious that they are not going to react instantaneously. Some even have checklists which are almost essays where there is no chance of a subconscious reaction because they are checking which way the wind is blowing. Of course they can do all that after trimming for glide, but we're just talking about that fraction of time between full power and no power, and the need to save your life first.

 

In an SMS, a key safety point, proven to be dangerous, just gets a more emphatic procedure and a more emphatic assessment method.

 

If I was to follow your advice, and if my currency was such that I'd lost some of the instinct, then I could be one of the next statistics, and also it HAS to be done by surprise - it has to have the shock value that extends reaction time from 50/100 of a second to several seconds. We could all do it every time if we just pulled the throttle when we felt like it.

 

AS far as it being your responsibility to be a competent pilot, it hasn't been for about 25 years.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Things are different now to years ago. We had a discussion on here a year or so ago when me and a few others mentioned that we had Instructors (CFIs) actually turn the engine off during training and/or during a AFR. Some people could see the merit of it and some people I think wanted the instructors heads on a platter. Back in the old days when Drifters and Thusters were the training aircraft. Landing with the engine off was more of a inconvenience than a death sentence.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Turbs, you keep mentioning this number of 30 fatalities...over what period ??.....we know of at least one recent one that was a direct result of an inflight heart attack. And how many were ex, recently-converted GA pilots...that's been a known problem in the sport for some years, with many thinking "oh these things are simple to fly" and then stalling on take-off, or falling out of the sky on finals. Hello...not so simple after all !....

 

Fatalities in aviation have been there since day one, and they will always be there. Nobody, including CASA, will ever achieve a zero fatality rate in aviation, regardless of how many SMSs, or restrictive regulations they produce.

 

Just not going to happen Jose !!....If you can't handle a fatality or two now and then, then sit back on that soft couch and keep watching those soap operas on TV, or go down and join your local barefoot bowls club....The safest thing any pilot can do is to fly often, practise those emergency proceedures before they happen, and really get to know his/her aeroplane...period................Maj...

 

 

[turboplanner]

The 30 fatality figure I understand came from the CASA meeting - it was mentioned I think earlier in this thread or maybe another.

 

It is for all the Sport Pilot groups,so it's not just RAA, but there is comment on that post relating to RAA.

 

Yes GA to RA I have personal experience of; it's often discussed as 45 minutes to transfer from a Jab to Cherokee, 4<5 hours the other way; I'd say it would be closer to 10.

 

No one will achieve zero, but the common factors can be addressed. (Don't forget I've previously mentioned I've administered a dangerous sport in Victoria coming towards 50 years with zero fatalities.)

 

These days you don't get the option of the last line.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Can't be too damn dangerous if you've never had a fatality in 50 years Turbs !...........And thirty over all adventure aviation sports would include the two recent powered parasail deaths, plus hangglider deaths, plus non RAA Trike deaths, plus Gyro deaths etc..etc...so how many does that leave for us in RAA ?......Granted one is way too many, but we don't by far, have the worst accident rate in Australia. That is, and has been for some years unfortunatly Gyrocopters.

 

In past years CASA wanted RAAus to take the gyro administration under our wing, as they wereen't doing a real flash job themselves. This was rejected by the RAAus because it would have ruined our good safety record over the years. And my apoligies to Gyro pilots, but facts are facts.....So turbs , could you do me, and all other RAAus pilots a big favor, and don't quote the 30 number in future RAAus discussions please................... Maj...

 

 

[pmccarthy]

My recollection from 43 years ago (supported by my log book) is that GA training included spin recovery ( after three rotations), one hour under the hood, recovery from unusual attitudes ( handover in the middle of an aerobatic routine, both visual and under the hood) and (optionally) aerobatic training. I haven't mentioned the things that I think are still done, like forced landings. Total may have been only a few hours but what a difference it makes to confidence and ability to react to surprises.

 

 

[facthunter]

That is pretty much as I recall it pmcc. It stopped in the early 60's when the big 3 makers didn't produce aerobatic aircraft. Recovery from unusual attitudes under the hood would shake a few up but that was done. You just use a few BASIC rules to work out what is happening to you.. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

Can't be too damn dangerous if you've never had a fatality in 50 years Turbs !...........And thirty over all adventure aviation sports would include the two recent powered parasail deaths, plus hangglider deaths, plus non RAA Trike deaths, plus Gyro deaths etc..etc...so how many does that leave for us in RAA ?......Granted one is way too many, but we don't by far, have the worst accident rate in Australia. That is, and has been for some years unfortunatly Gyrocopters.In past years CASA wanted RAAus to take the gyro administration under our wing, as they wereen't doing a real flash job themselves. This was rejected by the RAAus because it would have ruined our good safety record over the years. And my apoligies to Gyro pilots, but facts are facts.....So turbs , could you do me, and all other RAAus pilots a big favor, and don't quote the 30 number in future RAAus discussions please................... Maj...

That's Victoria; and that's a strict track inspection/machine inspection before each use/Chief Steward managing behaviour plus a lot more - some of the other States don't have too much to boast about.

 

The RAA figures I would say are about 10; virtually all of them mentioned on this site, although it takes a bit of trawling and you can miss threads titled "Oh No", "Horsham" etc

 

John Gardon also has figures.

 

Agree with you on Gyrocopters but we started climbing I think about three years ago and haven't gone down.

 

Yes I shouldn't have quoted 30 without referring it back to the CASA statement, which you should look at because it appears to be at the bottom of the current high speed push by CASA for RAA compliance and an SMS asap. I normally do quote just the ones I find which are mentioned on here.

 

 

[metalman]

That's Victoria; and that's a strict track inspection/machine inspection before each use/Chief Steward managing behaviour plus a lot more - some of the other States don't have too much to boast about.The RAA figures I would say are about 10; virtually all of them mentioned on this site, although it takes a bit of trawling and you can miss threads titled "Oh No", "Horsham" etc

 

John Gardon also has figures.

 

Agree with you on Gyrocopters but we started climbing I think about three years ago and haven't gone down.

 

Yes I shouldn't have quoted 30 without referring it back to the CASA statement, which you should look at because it appears to be at the bottom of the current high speed push by CASA for RAA compliance and an SMS asap. I normally do quote just the ones I find which are mentioned on here.

Has the dangerous sport you've mention grown as rapidly as RAAus , cause if its in decline then it may appear your doing a similar job as CASA, if no one ( or at least small numbers ) is flying ,or doing what your governing, then it's getting safer and safer, and if we can stop everyone from doing anything ,well damn ,us humans might just live forever !

 

 

[turboplanner]

I've lost track of the growth factor but it would have about 10500 competitors now who get faster every year without a corresponding increase in injury producing accidents.

 

It is much easier to manage though because, say in Victoria, all competitors for the weekend are coming in to five tracks and getting there early enough to be checked before any activity takes place, and a few get sidelined before anything starts.

 

You can't have that degree of control with about the same number of pilots deciding at any time to go for a fly from any field or even their home paddock, so controls have to be more audit based.

 

The cars are all checked for basic build compliance once a year before the start of each season, and often several times during the build though, by volunteer trained machine examiners.

 

 

[bull]

So-true-statistically-more-licenced-[and-unlicenced-pilots-DIE-DRIVING-to-the-airfield-,so-whats-more-dangerous,,,[go-figure].

 

 

[facthunter]

Can you quote the source for that, Bull? Nev

 

 

[frank marriott]

"I'd say it would be closer to 10."

 

Get real, if you learn to FLY then it is a aircraft. If it has VH on the tail then time is nil. Yes I went from GA to a jab (sorry still both) and the only reason I did a check was to get an RAA licence as I elected to register it that way. If I registered it VH I would have just flown it home.

 

If it takes someone 10 hours between a Piper and a Jabiru then I would suggest the person is still in the student phase. I won't mention the lengthy time I spent gaining a lic to fly RAA registered aircraft.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I have an outlook which has done me well in sports administration.

 

I just count the total, rather than drill down to x per 10,000 people

 

The reason it works is with the statistic you tend to look at it and file it and do nothing about it.

 

A total figure represents individual people.

 

I got very focused on the truck portion of the road toll in Victoria a few years ago.

 

The total road toll had reduced from I think 1194 per year to about 300 per year, 47 of that trucks.

 

A truckie can thread a 26 metre B Double through the eye of a needle at 100 km/hr, yet drivers were rolling truck, and hitting trees and each other.

 

We knew there were negligible mechanical causes, and virtually no load shifts.

 

So a few of us started to look closer. The Police Highway Task force once counted 197 skid marks off the Hume Highway from drivers going to sleep.

 

From my research I found that of the 47, about 43 had died asleep at the wheel.

 

Others found the same, and some fatigue legislation was developed.

 

At Arcadia, near Shepparton a young mother in a Laser was taking her two children to school one morning and was stopped in a right turn land into the school with her indicator on. A semi hit her at 100 km/hr with no braking whatsoever and there was very little to pick up of the family in the Laser.

 

That galvanised people into action, and the legislation was fast tracked with the turning point coming at a Melbourne breakfast which is another story for another day.

 

Currently, with the new legislation in place the numbers are beginning to fall.

 

My point is the fixed number of 47 gave us something to focus on.

 

 

[bull]

G-day-facthunter,Well-your-right-i-can,t-just-an-old-belief-of-mine-till-your-post-made-me-do-some-research,i-found-this-site-might-open-some-peoples-eye,s---certainly-made-me-think-again-cheers,,,,www.meretrix.com/~harry/flying/notes/safetyvsdriving.html‎

 

 

[frank marriott]

Sorry, I thought you were talking about flying an aeroplane.

 

 

[facthunter]

Had a good look at that, Bull. Motorcycles are bad. Airliners are good. ( Surprising how safe they are). Jet engines have a lot to do with that. they don't fail very often. Nev

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Turbs, I can appreciate the job you've done there with your whatever it is, and I congratulate you on your successfully figures. However...we cannot fit out our aircraft with steel roll cage protection, driver 4" wide restraint harnesses with heavy padding, fireproof driver suits , minimum capacity fuel tanks, and whatever else it is keeping your sportsmen/ women alive. As you know if we did that in the average UL it simply wouldn't get off the ground !.....so we are stuck with the fact that most aircraft are not designed or constructed to hit the ground at high rates of speed. So most who take to the air do so knowing the risks, and have accepted them forthwith. We tighten our seatbelts, make sure the fuel is on, hone our skills as best we can, and take to the sky's. Such is the sport of flying UL and other light recreational aircraft, in the year 2013. I've been listening to the masses telling us "your all going to kill yourselves" now for 30 years or so....... Enjoy it as it is ...or not , your choice entirely as I see it................Maj...

 

 

[M61A1]

AS far as it being your responsibility to be a competent pilot, it hasn't been for about 25 years.

I think that the truth of this statement may just well be a significant part of the problem.It needs to be driven home that from the moment that you open the hangar door (or should that be the moment that you get out of bed),until the moment you close it, that you and only you, can ensure that you are as safe as you can be (and that includes keeping a lookout for others that could harm you), regardless of any regulation/system put in place to protect you.