Why Was This Man Allowed To Fly. Interesting news article

[bull]

And-if-the-medical-issue-in-Barrys-case-is-such-a-safety-concern-,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,MAYBE-----RAA-pilots-should-at-least-have-a-epilepsy/cardiac--clearance-to-fly-ah,,,,why-are-all-those-rans-and-jabs-flying-off-into-the-bush-ahwhat-are-you-scared-of..................I-PERSONALLY-DONT-like-the-idea-of-a-55-to-65-year-old-pilot-with-cardiac-issues-flying-a-rans-rv6-or-sialar-crashing-through-*my-roof,,,,,,,,,think-about-it

 

 

[dutchroll]

My-apologys-to-all-concerned-on-this-thread-especially-you-Dutch,you-are-by-far-more-involved-in-aviation-than-me,-and-your-concerns-for-aviation-safety-are-real-and-valid-and-my-condolences-for-your-lost-mates-my-heart-was-talking-before-my-brain-and-i-have-no-right-to-question-you-I,m-sorry-mate ...................and-yes-still-using-my-old-toshiba-with-terminal-tanimi-disease-sorry

Apology accepted.

I still make mistakes after 16 years military and 13 years airline flying, with the small stuff in between as a hobby. But I do try to abide by the rules and learn from errors committed by myself and others. That way I hope to reach retirement age. ;)

 

 

[Teckair]

And-if-the-medical-issue-in-Barrys-case-is-such-a-safety-concern-,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,MAYBE-----RAA-pilots-should-at-least-have-a-epilepsy/cardiac--clearance-to-fly-ah,,,,why-are-all-those-rans-and-jabs-flying-off-into-the-bush-ahwhat-are-you-scared-of..................I-PERSONALLY-DONT-like-the-idea-of-a-55-to-65-year-old-pilot-with-cardiac-issues-flying-a-rans-rv6-or-sialar-crashing-through-*my-roof,,,,,,,,,think-about-it

I am not scared of anything in particular at this point, but I think your logic is flawed and you may think differently if (should have read... the passenger was) someone you cared about was killed in that plane.

 

 

[Teckair]

I am not scared of anything in particular at this point, but I think your logic is flawed and you may think differently if someone you cared about was killed in that plane.

Ok Bull before you hit the roof I apologise for that post I realise you did care about Barry and that is what this is all about. You most likely will know I am talking about the unsuspecting passenger. At this point I am sick of flogging a dead horse and am going to bow out before anything else go's wrong.

 

 

[Patrick Normoyle]

Bull, let me start by commending you on your devotion, friendship and compassion for a loved one, so often when we slip up, those we thought were friends desert us and we can be left on our own ( even in death, it is nice to have support). But I think this goes more to airmanship and aPilot in Command decision making, a great pilot Barry was( he did my level 1 aero endorsement training ), but I think his love for flying clouded his judgement where he should have grounded himself ( a pain worse than death for any pilot), all pilots have a duty of care to assess not just the flying conditions and the aircraft, but also the passengers and especially the crew ( including us, the pilot ).

 

Your friends driving trucks that shouldn't should be stopped, sorry mate I know it is their livelihood but this makes YOU complisent in the murders they may cause in their negligent driving. Tell them to turn themselves in or you should.

 

 

[bull]

G,day-Pat-your-dead-right-and-as-i,ve-now-got-a-tpi-injury-and-can-never-work-in-the-mining-game-again-i-have-already-given-the-ohs-officer-a-little-note-of-reccommendation-for-future-reference-about-this-matter-,but-you-have-to-understand-them-a-bit-mate-as-two-of-them-are-big-family-men-and-carreer-drivers-having-done-nothing-else,and-love-driving-trucks,,much-like-all-the-EX-GApilots-who-know-they-have-a-problem-so-went-and-brought-a-fantastic-plastic-and-joined-RAA-dont-you-think-the-same-should-apply-to-them,,???A-simple-medical-for-RAA-clearance-should-be-instituted--now-as-in-cardiac-checks-and-debilatating-conditions-like-epilepsy-etc,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,The-same-duty-of-care-applys-,you-fly-with-them-,you-know-them-they-are-your-friends,,,,,,,BUT-are-they-safe??????

 

 

[bull]

It,s-a-bit-scary-if-you-think-about,,,,,,,,,,,You-know-you-have-a-heart-condition-or-similar-and-knowingly-join-raa-because-of-the-less-strigent-medical-requirements---------------If-you-have-a-accident-and-someone-gets-killed-would-that-not-constitute---Premeditation-murder/manslaughter-i,m-no-lawyer,-but-some-members-are-and-maybe-they-could-clarify-that-ah........

 

 

[horsefeathers]

It,s-a-bit-scary-if-you-think-about,,,,,,,,,,,You-know-you-have-a-heart-condition-or-similar-and-knowingly-join-raa-because-of-the-less-strigent-medical-requirements---------------If-you-have-a-accident-and-someone-gets-killed-would-that-not-constitute---Premeditation-murder/manslaughter-i,m-no-lawyer,-but-some-members-are-and-maybe-they-could-clarify-that-ah........

Geeze Bull - can I buy you a new computer or keyboard ??

 

(Yeah, I read your earlier explanation).

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Bull

 

You are making it out to be much more than it is.......If your Dr says you can drive a car then you can fly a plane......If you think you can have a major issue such as cardiac failure, or epilepsy or diabetes (Type 1 in my case) and get to continue driving a car as though nothing has happened you are very wrong.

 

As soon as a diagnosis of the above occurs a GP/Specialist has a duty of care to notify the state motor Transport Department (DoT) and your license is the annotated with the issue and you are then required to have as a minimum an annual/biannual review and can only exercise the rights of your drivers license if the reviewing Dr says you are Ok and you have to take the completed form back to DoT or they cancel your license.

 

The forms involved in that review are not simply just a Go/Nogo check and if I rock up to a Dr I've never yet seen in the hope of avoiding the appropriate scrutiny I expect he will tell me to POQ.

 

At the end of the day this is not a new issue, its one that's been around for as long as cars have and is mature and generally well controlled. RAAus just appropriately piggy back of that system.....

 

If people are flying with those diseases then its because they are under care and control of a Dr....... In most Western nations for every diagnosed Type 2 diabetic there will be multiple others who aren't diagnosed. They are the ones you need be concerned about.....

 

Not withstanding all of the above....If you act as PIC when you know that you are not appropriately licensed, or healthy, or drug free, or alcohol free then that is the issue, nothing else.....All those other things above to me become an irrelevant distraction to the real issue which is "cant happen to me" it is or "I wont get caught" itis

 

Andy

 

 

[Yenn]

It doesn't matter how many doctors check you, they still rely on your honesty to work out what could affect you. In this case Barry was ok to fly as a PPL. That means he could not fly passengers for hire or reward and it seems that is just what he did. If someone makes themselves out to be a commercial pilot who can legally fly passengers, but is not, then I doubt he would tell his doctor or DAME anything at all that could be detrimental to his getting medical approval.

 

Thare has been a long campaign to get permission to fly without going to a DAME, but by getting your doctors OK. We have that now and there are some on this forum, who want to go backwards. It has long been proved that the DAMEs medical had no chance of picking up the fact that you were going to die of a heart attack within days of the medical, so why does anyone want to go back to expensive checks, for no greater safety. The great pity of this case is that so many people knew of the failings and kept quiet about them.

 

 

[turboplanner]

The current legal claim against the two doctors may tell us more about this Yenn.

 

I also am not happy at having to go to a DAME - mainly the stuffing around and the extra costs.

 

It was also a Dame that told me he couldn't provide a guarantee that a pilot wouldn't just drop dead at the controls without any warning with his wife beside him, so I'm an advocate of partners being trained at least up to solo standard, and also last time round I spent extra money to have a treadmill electrocardiogram, where your heart performance is tested under some heavy pressure similar to walking a long way up a steep hill.

 

 

[facthunter]

Having a stress ECG can cause a heart attack some time later, even if not at the time. though combined with an ultrascan just after gives a fairly good indication of heart and lung function. NO health test can give full assurance of not dying. A cerebral hemorage can happen anytime. (Burst blood vessel in the brain) IF your heart is abnormal a stroke is more likely, also If you are diabetic or overweight. If you can walk up three flights of stairs briskly and not feel distressed , that is not a bad start. You can have heart problems evident at 17 years and a heart attack by 28 years. It's not just an old person thing. Keeping relatively fit and away from fats in the diet helps. Our diet is generally poor. Too much Fat, sugar and salt. Processed foods are no good. Nev

 

 

[Phil Perry]

If your passengers are scared you either have the wrong passenger(s) or the wrong pilot. Frightening the hell out of people takes some kind of narcistic bent. You want them to fly again.Regarding the Hempel crash. You don't even know if there was something wrong with the plane. Nev

AT LAST. . . . .

 

As I have already said, I do not know of Mr. Hemple's life, flying nor exploits, these obviously occurred after I had departed Australian shores for the UK in 1983. . . . but, reading through all of your posts, it became obvious that,. . . notwithstanding reports of the Pilot's medical history,. . .that SOMETHING COULD ACTUALLY HAVE GONE WRONG WITH THE AEROPLANE AT A CRITICAL MOMENT DURING THE ACCIDENT FLIGHT.

 

Thank you for highlighting this important point Nev.

 

All other posts are taken into consideration, especially those from posters who actually knew the pilot concerned. However, the kind of heated speculation I have read does NOBODY any good really,. . . not until there is a definitive result from any investigation which may be still ongoing.

 

Just my Five Pence worth.

 

Phil

 

 

[horsefeathers]

So, Barry Hempel was

 

-a great all round guy and great pilot

 

OR

 

- a bit of a barnstormer prepared to risk others

 

He was

 

- fully licenced to take paying passengers

 

OR

 

- he had restrictions of some sort on his licence

 

The Yak

 

- had no problems

 

OR

 

- fell out of sky due to mechanical issues

 

Yet to see any comment WITH EVIDENCE backing up which of the above apply.

 

He might have been the nicest guy in the world, but IF he had some problems, where was his personal responsibility hiding when taking up paying passengers (including my daughter, for a joyride on her 18th birthday, a month before his fatal crash)?

 

I met Barry a few times, and he was the nicest guy, and upon learning about my daughter's interest in flying, wanted to help and mentor her.

 

BUT.

 

The buck stops with him eventually, as it must with all of us pilots, when deciding to fly or not.

 

Hiding behind doctors, or saying, 'it really doesn't apply to me, cause I know better', doesn't cut the mustard.

 

Was he fully licenced? Don't know, but it was never mentioned when we were organising the surprise joy flight.

 

When my daughter and I were interviewed by an accident investigator after his accident, I must admit I got pretty angry when I was told about his licence circumstances, and the risk she was placed under.

 

So yeah, all round nice guy, but it boils down in my view to personal responsibility, towards yourself and others. Didn't see that demonstrated that day.

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

I knew Barry fairly well and flew with him on a number of occasions where he right hand seated with me on getting me proficient in a particular aircraft type. Although he had a few character flaws that lessor persons would have found themselves behind bars, I found him very professional as a pilot and quite likable and a kindred spirit around an aeroplane. I was also at Archerfield the day he lost the argument with the Hangar door and was kept informed of his ensuing battle to regain his medical to fly. I know both doctors that are now being harassed by the lawsuit and know first hand that neither would cut corners to allow anyone to fly if presented with a situation which would call for restrictions or grounding of the pilot. They did however clear Barry to be able to exercise the privileges of a private pilot, something that he was NOT doing at the time of the accident. I feel for the loss that both families are enduring, but really the blame must fall at the feet of both the CFI/CP of Hemple's Aviation at the time and CASA as they had a good measure of information of what Barry was doing and did nothing to stop it.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

The coroners findings into the Hempel inquest

 

http://www.courts.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/212517/cif-hempel-bi-lovell-ir-20131004.pdf

 

 

[pmccarthy]

http://www.best-poems.net/robert_w_service/poem-16869.html

 

This was all clearly explained by Robert Service in about 1920. Check the link.

 

 

[facthunter]

Well finally the coroner's report. A few questions to address about fitness to fly and personalities as well as how the matter was dealt with at the highest levels, and over a considerable period of time too. Thanks Crezzi Nev

 

 

[winsor68]

BullYou are making it out to be much more than it is.......If your Dr says you can drive a car then you can fly a plane......If you think you can have a major issue such as cardiac failure, or epilepsy or diabetes (Type 1 in my case) and get to continue driving a car as though nothing has happened you are very wrong.

 

As soon as a diagnosis of the above occurs a GP/Specialist has a duty of care to notify the state motor Transport Department (DoT) and your license is the annotated with the issue and you are then required to have as a minimum an annual/biannual review and can only exercise the rights of your drivers license if the reviewing Dr says you are Ok and you have to take the completed form back to DoT or they cancel your license.

 

The forms involved in that review are not simply just a Go/Nogo check and if I rock up to a Dr I've never yet seen in the hope of avoiding the appropriate scrutiny I expect he will tell me to POQ.

 

At the end of the day this is not a new issue, its one that's been around for as long as cars have and is mature and generally well controlled. RAAus just appropriately piggy back of that system.....

 

If people are flying with those diseases then its because they are under care and control of a Dr....... In most Western nations for every diagnosed Type 2 diabetic there will be multiple others who aren't diagnosed. They are the ones you need be concerned about.....

 

Not withstanding all of the above....If you act as PIC when you know that you are not appropriately licensed, or healthy, or drug free, or alcohol free then that is the issue, nothing else.....All those other things above to me become an irrelevant distraction to the real issue which is "cant happen to me" it is or "I wont get caught" itis

 

Andy

Not too sure about the Doctors DoT thing... I had a minor heart murmur a few years ago and I specifically discussed this issue with my Doctor...he was unconcerned...I self grounded myself from flying as PIC without an instructor... The paperwork involved in providing details about patients with heart issues would have to be enormous on the health system...and I don't know what the rules say ... but I would be surprised if it was being done ...

 

 

[facthunter]

Winsor, you have done the right thing, but plenty of people have heart murmurs. My wife has had one for years and she just keeps an eye on it ECG will note change. It's caused by a leaking heart valve, and is not considered a risk in her case. Monitor your stamina and if you get breathless easier than normal have it looked at, and of course if there are any chest/shoulder/back pains when you are exerting have it investigated.

 

No matter what the tests done, an absolute guarantee of "no problems" is not available, but you can improve your chances a lot if you really want to. Nothing is more important than your health. Nev

 

 

[winsor68]

Believe me Nev don't I know it...during my short stint in in Hospital I liked the environment so much I decided it might be a less stressful place to work...I was right...believe me I know how important looking after yourself is...it's been an eye opener.

 

 

[DGL Fox]

Yes I started my training at Hemple's Aviation, I knew Barry, he decided to get add Jab 160 to his fleet, so that's what I started my training in, but, that was short lived and the Jab seemed to disappear overnight when I arrived to do a training session, the CFI couldn't or wouldn't explain what had happned to the 160 and told me that I could continue to train there in one of Barry's old training fleet aircraft, they looked to me like they had been sitting out on the Archerfield flight line for 50 yrs, I declined his offer and didn't do any training again for a long time unit I came up here to Caboolture, I might add I am still going ....from what I saw of him (Barry) while I was there he was a man of immense flying talent but also very much a cowboy and man that had to have everything his way and if you didn't, he would show you the door very quickly..he had no tolerace for fools and at times students (I know personally) or authority...but that's just my opinion..

 

I was always dreading the time where I would have to go up there with him for my check flight, he was scary dude to a student pilot I can tell you..rest in peace Barry...

 

David

 

 

[Sky Gazer]

There is a massive amount of stuff on this guy, some think he was gods gift to aviation, others say he was a dangerous cowboy, I have no opinion either way other than from what I've read he should've been grounded years before the fatal crash.He had plenty of skill for sure but with that should come the responsibility to be an example to lesser pilots .

A case in point ,I was with a mate at Tyabb airshow last time it was on and as we walked by Matt Hall's stand he stopped my mate and asked his opinion on the routine Matt had just done, I was amazed at two things, Matt halls humility and who is this fella I'm hanging around with that Matt hall asks to critique his performance.

 

Matty

Hi Matt

 

It sounds like you must have been wandering around with Critter ?

 

Pete

 

 

[metalman]

Hi MattIt sounds like you must have been wandering around with Critter ?

 

Pete

Nah Pete ,was another aviation guru, I have one in each state !

Matty

 

 

[kaz3g]

A

 

Nah Pete ,was another aviation guru, I have one in each state !Matty

And a very respected guru he is, too. I saw much the same exchange at TOC a while back.

 

Kaz