Tailwheel Skyfox CA25 too easy?

[Happyflyer]

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but.....

TYPE TRAINING (AEROPLANE)

 

18. An applicant undertaking training for a specific aeroplane type must:

 

(a) hold the appropriate aeroplane Group rating; and

 

(b) complete theory training to the satisfaction of an RA-Aus Examiner; and © undertake flight training to meet the competency requirements of Unit 1.11 of the RA-Aus Syllabus of Flight Training, in the type of aeroplane sought; and

 

(d) pass a flight check with an RA-Aus Examiner; or

 

(e) provide written proof to the Operations Manager of an appropriate recognised qualification.

 

I recall having a discussion with Op's about this when version 7 of the Op's Manual was being drafted. See section 2.05-9

I agree Roundsounds. See 2.1-05 para 13 below. There is no way of anyone getting type trained on a new type or on a single seat type. Hope it is re-written before there is an accident and the insurers look at this clause. The GA requirement is much more sensible. On top of this if you buy a homebuilt type that you are not type trained on, no one can train you in it and you can't do your BFR in it.

In the GA world as an owner (not necessarily the builder) of a home built you can train in it.

 

13. No Pilot Certificate holder shall operate a recreational aeroplane as pilot in command without having demonstrated competency on Type. Aeroplane Type Training must be undertaken with an RA-Aus Examiner who holds the respective aeroplane group and type.

 

 

[M61A1]

You may find the answer in the definitions.......

 

Aeroplane Group

 

See Section 2.04 for designations, which are generally divided by control design e.g. Group A – three axis control aeroplane.

 

Aeroplane Type

 

Aeroplane undercarriage configuration, design features, flight envelope (e.g. high drag/low drag and considerations of inertia), stall speeds and normal/emergency handling characteristics as designated by the manufacturer.

 

 

[SDQDI]

Newtons last law, for every regulation there is an equal and opposite regulation.

 

But seriously maybe the solution to get us all to understand all the rules better is to introduce some more rules that only slightly contradict the rules that are already there.

 

 

[facthunter]

I think "if you understand it, let us know and we will correct it". applies.

 

There was an undertaking that in no instance would RAAus rules be more restrictive than those of GA.in the early days. That sounds fair enough but why not proof read everything to confirm there is NO confusion with the meaning of any rule or regulation.. Is that too much to ask.?.Nev

 

 

[Teckair]

RAAus require training on all new types, even more restrictive than GA.

That was news to me, first I heard of that.

 

 

[farri]

Newtons last law, for every regulation there is an equal and opposite regulation.But seriously maybe the solution to get us all to understand all the rules better is to introduce some more rules that only slightly contradict the rules that are already there.

"But seriously" ????.....

 

Frank.

 

 

[M61A1]

Newtons last law, for every regulation there is an equal and opposite regulation.But seriously maybe the solution to get us all to understand all the rules better is to introduce some more rules that only slightly contradict the rules that are already there.

Seems that a lot of govt departments have their own definitions. In past few years, I've found that when Centrelink say "non-reportable income", the tax people mean "taxable income", and that for some reason, when your 18 year old leaves home to live by themselves and work elsewhere, they are not "independent" apparently.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

I had a discussion with Ops when ver 7 was still in draft suggesting they go the GA way, but the intent is training on each aircraft type. eg If you learn in a Jabiru and now want to fly a Technam Sierra - you need an "endorsement" irrespective of your experience. This change is the result of several accidents involving early / first flights on a new type and reportedly involved pilots with little and lots of experience. The sooner the incident database is up and running the better, cause you'll be able to prove / disprove these assumptions.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

I had a discussion with Ops when ver 7 was still in draft suggesting they go the GA way, but the intent is training on each aircraft type. eg If you learn in a Jabiru and now want to fly a Technam Sierra - you need an "endorsement" irrespective of your experience. This change is the result of several accidents involving early / first flights on a new type and reportedly involved pilots with little and lots of experience. The sooner the incident database is up and running the better, cause you'll be able to prove / disprove these assumptions.

Unfortunately they didn't think this through before they put it in the ops manual. Someone has to be able to fly new types or we are forever stuck with what we have now. An experienced instructor or CFI needs to be able to self endorse but the current ops manual forbids that.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

There is provision to make a written submission to the Ops Mgr for approval to fly a type without an endorsement:

 

(e) provide written proof to the Operations Manager of an appropriate recognised qualification.

 

 

[Camel]

These are some relevant FAQ on version 7 changes from RAA website. Hope it helps, Seems people are making it a big deal as if you never flown a similar aircraft don't risk hurting anybody. I don't think training is a bad thing.

 

Q: What sort of aircraft characteristics does type training refer to?

 

A: Aircraft performance - Fast- greater than 100KTS, Medium – 60-100KTS, Slow- less than 60KTS, Avionics - Glass cockpit, steam gauges, combination, Wing configuration – high lift and high camber wings, high speed wings, elliptical or box canopy, strutted versus wire braced, Fuel system – taps, cross-feed, injection, pumping systems, Ancillary flight controls and lift devices - Flaps, dive brakes, trim, cowl flaps, carburettor heat, slots, vortex generators, electric or manual, Pre-flight considerations – aircraft construction – metal, composite, fabric, combined, Cockpit ergonomics – yoke, control stick, position of controls, seat access, door securing systems, canopy securing.

 

Q: I trained on a Drifter for my Pilot Certificate and I am thinking about buying a Jabiru, what do I have to do?

 

A: Before your first flight in the Jabiru, you are required to undertake specific training with an RA- Aus Examiner (RA-Aus Senior Instructor or higher) in the new type in order to ensure you understand the flight characteristics, design features, systems and other aircraft specific information. The Instructor should make a logbook entry stating the following:

 

{name and member number} has satisfactorily completed type training on a {model} on {date}. Signed {Instructor name and member number} and dated

 

Q: Do I still need a High Performance endorsement to fly my Sportstar aircraft?

 

A: No, both High and Low Performance Endorsements are no longer required and have been replaced by the recommendation for Type Training and a logbook entry by the RA-Aus Examiner once training is completed.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Camel, the final Answer from the FAQs you quoted mentions "recommendation for Type Training". I don't read the ops manual as saying this is a recommendation, rather being a requirement.

 

I would suggest a Type is a type (eg Jabiru J170, Skyfox Gazelle etc) not a class, group or fitted equipment (eg high performance, two stroke, glass cockpit, spoilers etc.)

 

 

[Camel]

No it's not, your making it up, here is the definition as I already cut and pasted ! You need to read the ops manual.

 

https://www.raa.asn.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Operations-Manual-Issue-7_Single-pages-with-new-CAO-95.55-Mar-15.pdf

 

The question about new types of aircraft being imported or built was asked at the CFI conference, the answer was that most instructors would have used most design features so assess whether you are competent, if not get someone else.

 

From version 7.

 

Aeroplane Group.

 

See Section 2.04 for designations, which are generally divided by control design e.g. Group A – three axis control aeroplane.

 

Aeroplane Type.

 

Aeroplane undercarriage configuration, design features, flight envelope (e.g. high drag/low drag and considerations of inertia), stall speeds and normal/ emergency handling characteristics as designated by the manufacturer.

 

TYPE TRAINING

 

13. No Pilot Certificate holder shall operate a recreational aeroplane as pilot in command without having demonstrated competency on Type. Aeroplane Type Training must be undertaken with an RA-Aus Examiner who holds the respective aeroplane group and type.

 

The RA-Aus Examiner is required to make an entry into the pilot’s logbook detailing confirmation of the training undertaken and achievement of competency in accordance with Section 2.02 of this manual.

 

Note: Logbook entries showing a minimum of 2 hours pilot in command of an aeroplane type recorded prior to Issue 7 of this manual will be accepted as evidence of appropriate type training for that aeroplane.

 

 

[facthunter]

Unless you make everything LSA (which would be a disaster) EVERY plane is different and they may fly different. . GA went to groups in the 60's. and they are certified aircraft. and freed up further after that. Don't make hurdles artificially that restrict us further. There's enough BS and paperwork already to drive you up the wall. Nev

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Ok, I now see how "Type" is being interpreted. The application of type is inconsistent throughout the manual. Some can be interpreted as aircraft with similar handling characteristics, stall speed, configuration etc. however there are other references to Type which are specific to a particular manufacturer and model. Try doing a word search of the .pdf and you'll see what I mean.

 

The FAA define type as follows:

 

Type:

 

(1) As used with respect to the certification, ratings, privileges, and limitations of airmen, means a specific make and basic model of aircraft, including modifications thereto that do not change its handling or flight characteristics. Examples include: DC–7, 1049, and F–27; and

 

(2) As used with respect to the certification of aircraft, means those aircraft which are similar in design. Examples include: DC–7 and DC–7C; 1049G and 1049H; and F–27 and F–27F.

 

(3) As used with respect to the certification of aircraft engines means those engines which are similar in design. For example, JT8D and JT8D–7 are engines of the same type, and JT9D–3A and JT9D–7 are engines of the same type.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

There is provision to make a written submission to the Ops Mgr for approval to fly a type without an endorsement:(e) provide written proof to the Operations Manager of an appropriate recognised qualification.

What would be an appropriate qualification I wonder? Perhaps a GA licence where the pilot can make that decision.

 

 

[Camel]

I agree with you roundsounds as it may appear, it was done to not stop anyone flying if they were truly competent, but it is likely a low hour pilot is not competent and should not risk flying a Jabiru after flying a Drifter as the examples quotes.

 

 

[facthunter]

A lot of owners just fly their own aircraft, and nothing else. It's probably those who might find adjusting to something else a bit difficult. Nev