Past accident info......??

[Guest Maj Millard]

Since we get kept in the dark by everyone else, maybe we can get an underground info trail going on here ??....for the mutual benefit of all, and with the improvement of safety being the only goal..........

 

Does anyone have any additional info on the Gazzelle that went down out of Cabulture with the female pilot on board ?.......earlier this year.

 

What about the Lightwing that went in, in Tasmania....I heard that it was related to a physical incapacitation issue with the elderly pilot ?....

 

Any additional info on the recent one in WA...?

 

We had a recent gyro incident here in the North ( not sure if RAA rego)....... From what I've heard the two seat Magni type with two on board (914) failed to maintain altitude in a mountainous area due to possible severe down air, and ended up in the trees, with the pilot breaking a leg. Required rescue by authorities. Machine written off, pilot experienced.

 

 

[turboplanner]

There is a little information on a couple of threads here I think

 

 

[turboplanner]

You got me interested so I thought I'd look them up; these are the thread titles

 

January 2013 - Fatal Incident in Tasmania

 

February 2013 - Gazelle missing at YCAB (fatal, woman 56)

 

June 2013 - Gyrocopter down in Western Queensland

 

June 2103 - Western Australia Ultralight fatality

 

It would help a lot if thread starters used descriptions which would suit later searches, such as

 

Ultralight incident/crash/fatal crash at Bendigo rather than terms like Western Australia, YCAB (you know where that is but there are too many codes in Australia for anyone to bother memorising them), or "Oh no not another one, or Oh Dear, which don't help anyone trying to find a particular incident.

 

I know this is hard at the very beginning of an incident, I've made the same mistake myself, but Recreational Flying is a premium source of accident data, so needs to be as searchable as possible.

 

Many of these reports trail off into nothing and you can make your own mind up as to why that happens.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

No turbo the gyro in Western Qld was a different incident. I believe I saw a report on that recently on the ATSB site. The one I mention was only about three weeks ago and the gyro was based out of Montpelier...Came to grief just south of Townsville...........Maj...

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I'm hoping we can get some factual info on all incidents from now on, but it has to be factual, not just what we think may have happened. People say we don't have access to the facts because of police, however every time I talk to the ops person, they seem to know the facts on what happened.

 

For instance there are still a lot of Gazzelles used for training, it would be handy to know if there were any equipment failures (engine, flaperons ?) that may have contributed or caused the one out of Cabulture, or not!..............Maj...

 

 

[turboplanner]

If an Ops person has been called to the scene as an expert advisor by Police, you would expect him to have a good knowledge of what was evident at the scene, ie before any metallurgical tests etc.

 

However, he is under police control so is restricted in what he can say, otherwise I'd suggest we would see regular reports. On the other hand the Ops guy may be telling you what he knows from personal discussions, which is likely to be a lot more than we know after internet discussions (although sometimes we dig down and find out things they don't know). All of that can be useful for general discussion as against a veil of silence.

 

Failures like a flaperon in a Gazelle which caused loss of control and life are likely to come out on RF discussions. Failures which just upend the aircraft come out in quite good quantities in Pilot Notes in the magazine, but at times it seems to me the report has been written by the local baker given the sparse information. That a Jabiru departed the runway and wend end over end into a ditch after landing doesn't tell us anything about which model, the wind, runway quality, mechanical failure, or pilot error.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

I'm hoping we can get some factual info on all incidents from now on, but it has to be factual, not just what we think may have happened. People say we don't have access to the facts because of police, however every time I talk to the ops person, they seem to know the facts on what happened.For instance there are still a lot of Gazzelles used for training, it would be handy to know if there were any equipment failures (engine, flaperons ?) that may have contributed or caused the one out of Cabulture, or not!..............Maj...

In the past there has been the odd occasion where some sort of veiled warning was posted soon after a prang. This is unlikely to prejudice an investigation, and might save a life. Surely our ops people could arrange for this to happen.

 

 

[dazza 38]

I have a question. What happened to the monthly accident/incident reports that used to be in the RAA magazine a fair while ago ?

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

I don't believe that if, as part of their investigation, RAAus accident investigators found any major equipment failures that they would keep it to themselves & there have been AD / SB issued as the result of some investigations

 

I'm therefore inclined to draw a predictable conclusion as to the root cause of most these accidents.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Yes but Crezzi, even though you have drawn a "predictable conclusion" in your words, wouldn't it still be usefull to know what that conclusion was ?..... iE: pilot error, (covers a multitude of sins) CFIT, low time pilot, lack of recent experience.. suicide, physical incapacitation , heart attack or other.....or enviorimntal causes.....down air off a hill etc.......cable failure ?. We're all control surfaces attached and operating.....Something a bit more than "wreckage found destroyed in pine trees"...please.

 

Most post crash investigations start with establishing wether the prop was delivering power ...or not. Wether the control system was complete, and capable of operating. Was there fuel in the tanks, was there water in the fuel. Not many aircraft don't have even a basic GPS on board these days, they can be downloaded for final route details.

 

And then there's the autopsy report......alcohol, drugs, excess Co2 in the blood, condition of heart etc.

 

There are accidents where a definitive cause cannot be established, (especially where a post- crash fire has occurred) however most leave some sort of a cookie trail..................Maj...

 

 

[turboplanner]

Well now you and Crezzi are starting to cross over under the feet of the Police who may well be gathering all that data to prepare a brief for the Coroner.

 

Go down to your local Senior Sergeant and have a talk to him about the dangers of releasing that information before the coroner's Hearing, or worse stepping straight into the Public Liability case.

 

We've discussed this in detail many times before on a number of threads, and it has been supported by professionals.

 

We've also discussed that what the Coroner wants and what we want are often two different things and rarely tell us about the lead up to the crash.

 

And we've also discussed several times the fact that ATSB offered to investigate our accidents, and appear to have been rebuffed, and now is a perfect time to ask ATSB to investigate RA accidents.

 

So where we need to go is crystal clear.

 

In the meantime, there is quite a bit of information on things like Gazelle flaperon hinge mounts, certainly enough that if I was buying one it wouldn't leave the ground unless the hinge mounting material had been carefully checked.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Not doing anything of the sort Turbs, your making a mountain out of a molehill, as usual. The incident that I have reported in my first post, hasn't been reported to my knowledge, and probabily won''t be, so there's info we may not have got in the long or short term. There are other incidents that also haven't been reported, however in some cases I have reported the details generically on the RAA incident reporting forms, so supposably they are at least in the system.

 

Additionally I have received a very interesting phone call today about one of the incidents previously mentioned, but I can't share details at this time. This may or may not have been from an official person who was in on the details, and agrees with our need for correct information.

 

So the ball has already started to roll, if your not interested in hopping on the train, then all you need to do is hop back from the platform....as you will note if you re-read post 5, the info has to be factual . If Ian doesn't like what we are doing, and feels it's a public liability risk, then I'm sure he'll let us know. Regardless I have been running my own files on RAA crashes and incidents now for over four years, and plan to continue as it's all coming up with an interesting picture.......................Maj...

 

 

[turboplanner]

Good, do your own legwork then

 

 

[dlegg]

Heres an attached spreadsheet with 10yrs of compiled accidents 00-2010.

 

Not sure if you have seen it, but sure others haven't......

 

attachment e - ultralight accidents 00-10.xls

 

attachment e - ultralight accidents 00-10.xls

 

attachment e - ultralight accidents 00-10.xls

[Guest Maj Millard]

Wow thank you Dlegg...that's what I would call a valuable contribution !...........just did a quick peruse, and I can Probabily fill in a gap or two in for you......thank you again for contributing positively ............Maj...

 

 

[seb7701]

A this stage, I would suggest application to the state coroner by the RAA would be the best option (if we could get anyone there to do it...)

 

The two sources of accident information regarding the actual 'logistics' of an incident are covered by the forensic crash unit (in Qld) or equivalent, then passed to the state coroner for inclusion in the final report by the coroner. This will include the essentials of aircraft, pilot and environmental factors. Therefore, rather than try and conduct a right to information search on the relevant state police agency, request a copy of the report from the coroner, which will include the whole lot, including the police report or any other relevant info.

 

Information published on the Qld Coroner's website indicates that disclosure can be made for appropriate purposes, which I would like to think an official request by RAA might be. Either way, I would think proper representation by RAA should achieve something, given that inquests are made public anyway. We just need a access to findings which don't result in an inquest too.

 

http://www.courts.qld.gov.au/courts/coroners-court/access-to-coronial-documents

 

The above link refers to access to coroners reports as I mentioned. The good news is that there is two main sources of factual info- police and coroner. Sounds like a good starting job for the new RAA safety officer....

 

 

[farri]

I have a question. What happened to the monthly accident/incident reports that used to be in the RAA magazine a fair while ago ?

Buggerd if I I know!...They probably realised it wasn`t very smart to have a full page of incidences and accidents in a monthly magazine that is intended to promote safe,fun, recreational aviation.

 

Frank.

 

 

[pudestcon]

Buggerd if I I know!...They probably realised it wasn`t very smart to have a full page of incidences and accidents in a monthly magazine that is intended to promote safe,fun, recreational aviation.Frank.

Hmmm, could be wrong but I seem to recall discussion on this about the time the newsletter of the time became a magazine available to the public at the local newsagency - didn't want to turn people away from taking up our sport.

 

Pud

 

 

[farri]

A this stage, I would suggest application to the state coroner by the RAA would be the best option (if we could get anyone there to do it...). Request a copy of the report from the coroner, which will include the whole lot, including the police report or any other relevant info.....

Good idea, but doesn`t coroner only look at fatal accidents?

 

Frank.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

The last mag had a couple of pages of election statements, maybe they just needed room for those in this edition. Although I note there are none in either the May or June editions either...............Maj...

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Yes Frank, the Coroner does look at all fatal accidents. However that process can take several years, and if there was a critical equipment failure that would effect the rest of us, it's just too long a period. We do have access to Coroners reports when they come out however.

 

When there is a skydiving facility, or even a failure that effects others, they get an immediate notification from their organisation the Australian Parachute Federation (APF). We are not getting much at all at the moment.................Maj...

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Since starting this thread I have relieved a few private contributions via PM, Email and by phone. I thank all involved for their contributions , and especially Dlegg who has provided a whole ten years of data which will be added to my own four years of collection, covering the years since then.

 

The timely study of accident and failure data is one of the most valuable learning and development tools available to anyone involved in our, or similar activities. Now that the CASA Safety Digest has gone online, we have lost that timely contribution, other than to those who take the time to go online and read it.

 

One interesting thing I have noted from Dleggs data is the couple of Lightwing landing incidents resulting in damage . These I was not previously aware of. At least 80 % of my total time is in taildraggers, and the Lightwing would be one of the easiest to land when done correctly. This indicates to me that perhaps people are hopping in them without getting the required tail wheel checkouts or required training, causing unnecessary accidents. Unfortunately this scenereo has been common for many years, and gives rise to the incorrect assumption that all taildraggers will just try to kill you every landing, which is very far from the truth..................Maj...

 

 

[facthunter]

Taildragger pilots are becoming more rare, Maj and may not be properly skilled and practiced. At times I would go long periods out of flying a DH 82 but when I got at one again I knew that the first landing might not be my prettiest but It would still be safe because if things weren't exactly right I would give it away and go around. Haven't bent anything yet. Nev

 

 

[farri]

Yes Frank, the Coroner does look at all fatal accidents. However that process can take several years, and if there was a critical equipment failure that would effect the rest of us, it's just too long a period. Maj...

Ross, My point was/is! Because the coroner only looks at fatal accidents ( to my knowledge ) we wouldn`t have any factual information on the non fatal accidents.

 

There have been ( and will continue to be ) many accidents that were not fatal but could very easily have been so. It absolutely helps to know the reason/s so we can all try and avoid the same situation.

 

I still believe, if , we as members of the RAA, wish to have a factual report of the cause of every single incident and accident, then in my opinion, it is the responsibility of the RAA to provide the information to it`s members. We as members, need to decide what we truely want.

 

Frank.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Hit the nail on the head there Frank ! If I get elected to the board it'll be top of my list I can guarantee you .........Maj...