Past accident info......??

[farri]

What`s this, "If I get elected"?.... You will be elected if you can show the members that you are the best person for the job.

 

Be positive and let everyone know what you stand for........ No bull crap speak.

 

Frank

 

 

[Herm]

I have a question. What happened to the monthly accident/incident reports that used to be in the RAA magazine a fair while ago ?

They must of missed it by Accident

 

 

[eightyknots]

Good, do your own legwork then

 

 

 

Heres an attached spreadsheet with 10yrs of compiled accidents 00-2010.Not sure if you have seen it, but sure others haven't......

It looks as if dlegg has done nearly all the legwork for you Maj!

 

 

[dlegg]

It looks as if dlegg has done nearly all the legwork for you Maj!

Now that would be leggwork:oh yeah:

 

 

[poteroo]

Since we get kept in the dark by everyone else, maybe we can get an underground info trail going on here ??....for the mutual benefit of all, and with the improvement of safety being the only goal..........Does anyone have any additional info on the Gazzelle that went down out of Cabulture with the female pilot on board ?.......earlier this year.

 

What about the Lightwing that went in, in Tasmania....I heard that it was related to a physical incapacitation issue with the elderly pilot ?....

 

Any additional info on the recent one in WA...?

 

We had a recent gyro incident here in the North ( not sure if RAA rego)....... From what I've heard the two seat Magni type with two on board (914) failed to maintain altitude in a mountainous area due to possible severe down air, and ended up in the trees, with the pilot breaking a leg. Required rescue by authorities. Machine written off, pilot experienced.

Maj, have to agree with your call for more info on accidents and incidents. Without info as to the causes - how on earth can any SMS really succeed? I'm with you on this. BTW, I haven't heard anything further about the Dongara accident, but I had flown that particular aircraft in 2011 during a BFR.

 

happy days,

 

 

[seb7701]

Good idea, but doesn`t coroner only look at fatal accidents?Frank.

Yes, but that means that the information regarding other incidents won't be as guarded and will be more easily accessible.

Police may still investigate in the instance of serious injury, but not always. As such, that's where RAA member notifications would come in and perhaps RAA assistance may be provided (if willing by subject member) should causal factor be elusive enough to need a second opinion.

 

Just my thoughts...

 

 

[farri]

Hi Seb, Take a look at my earlier post, number 24.

 

Frank.

 

 

[Bandit12]

What concerns me as well is the lack of "incident" information. The current system involving fatalities, police and coroners is unlikely to change. But for every person who dies, how many more have similar incidents that didn't result in an accident and injury/death? There is a lot to be learned from a review of incidents involving less injury/damage or no injury/damage as well. Is there a self-reporting mechanism for "I accidentally flew into cloud today but got out of it" or "I lined up in front of another aircraft today, causing it to go around" type of incidents, where events can be looked at from a learning perspective rather than a punitive one?

 

 

[facthunter]

Some information provided (reporting) can be classified as useful and self declared and not for prosecution of the individual who declared it. Might be worth chasing this up Nev

 

 

[104chocks]

""Any additional info................

 

We had a recent gyro incident here in the North ( not sure if RAA rego)....... From what I've heard the two seat Magni type with two on board (914) failed to maintain altitude in a mountainous area due to possible severe down air, and ended up in the trees, with the pilot breaking a leg. Required rescue by authorities. Machine written off, pilot experienced""

 

If registered it will be with ASRA, but some bypass this and operate unregistered.

 

Gyro accident data only makes it into the public domain via news reports, these can be very brief and less than accurate.

 

ASRA prefer to publish no public summary info.

 

If any one can basic details for the incident mentioned above, ie date and location or provide a news link then I'll add it to the Blog

 

http://gyrocopteraccidentsinaustralia.blogspot.co.uk/

 

The Blog listing is certainly less than complete.

 

Regards

 

Steve

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I believe it would have been registered with ASRA as you suggest Steve. As I was not directly connected with this group, all the details I have (second hand) are, as I have already posted above. I have no reason to believe my details aren't correct however. I'm sure one of the group will file a more complete accident report at the appropriate time........Regards Maj..............

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Experience in industry generally is that incident reporting is fundamental to good safety management. Accidents and especially fatalities are too few statistically to point to paths for improvement. So the non- access to fatality information is not important. We need a culture of incident reporting that produces a rich database that will enable identification of root causes and opportunities for improvement. Having said that, my own observation over many years is that aviation incidents are not reported in GA or RA unless a lot of people were watching it happen and might report it independent of the pilot. So we need a change in culture, which I think must be driven by a change in the behaviour of the regulator. We will not have a reporting culture unless the threat of retribution is non- existent. This is well understood in the industry that I work in.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

If an Ops person has been called to the scene as an expert advisor by Police, you would expect him to have a good knowledge of what was evident at the scene, ie before any metallurgical tests etc.However, he is under police control so is restricted in what he can say, otherwise I'd suggest we would see regular reports. On the other hand the Ops guy may be telling you what he knows from personal discussions, which is likely to be a lot more than we know after internet discussions (although sometimes we dig down and find out things they don't know). All of that can be useful for general discussion as against a veil of silence.

 

Failures like a flaperon in a Gazelle which caused loss of control and life are likely to come out on RF discussions. Failures which just upend the aircraft come out in quite good quantities in Pilot Notes in the magazine, but at times it seems to me the report has been written by the local baker given the sparse information. That a Jabiru departed the runway and wend end over end into a ditch after landing doesn't tell us anything about which model, the wind, runway quality, mechanical failure, or pilot error.

This is a very useful idea in my view, . . . I have already asked various questions with regard to accident reporting ( or apparent lack thereof insofar as RAA machines are concerned. . . ) in Australia.

 

I have only ever ONCE been asked ( by the British A.A.I.B.) to be present at an accident site where a personal friend was killed in a flexwing type ( Trike ) as, I knew the person concerned, was a member of his Club and owned / flew an identical machine. At that time ( 1995 ) the AAIB had not previously investigated a "fatal" in the UK involving a flexwing aircraft ( or at least,. . THIS particular team hadn't ) and their guys asked me lots of questions regarding description of components of the machine, speeds, general "weather resistance" ( interesting one that. . .) and various handling characteristics etc.

 

After about three hours on site, I managed to contact a flexwing "Guru" called Simon Baker who was then a senior instructor with loads of international trike flight under his belt and I left him with the crashteam guys ( and lady ) and then rather impolitely buggered off to the local wine bar. ( He never forgave me for that )

 

That investigation was however, assisted enormously by the fact that the aircraft came to grief on a site used by lots of aero modellers. Whilst none of these witnesses were actually licensed pilots,. . .the information that they were able to give was really valuable ( so the AAIB people reckoned anyway ) as they really do KNOW a bit about how aircraft fly, and what wind was present on the site at the time etc. . . and could describe to a man pretty well EXACTLY what occurred, in good technical detail.

 

Anyway, I realise I am digressing just a LITTLE bit here, and I don't want to hijack the thread. The thrust of my comment is that all of these reports are finally PUBLISHED, and noone is ever silenced by the police nor anyone else. If the RF forum can be cleverly ( and safely. . . potential Litigation ? . . .) employed to shed more light on some of the accidents hereinbefore mentioned then this HAS TO BE a distinct advantage, as Turbo has suggested PROVIDING that the threads are categorised in a sensible manner as the poster has already detailed. I'll be interested to see if this works. Can't help much, I'm too far away. . . .

 

It's a bit like when my old uncle Ernie the farmer used to take me on his horse and cart and we were stopped in our tracks by a gigantic pile of horsedung, he always used to say. . . .

 

If we cant' get THROUGH it, then we'll have to find a way to get AROUND IT.

 

Phil

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Taildragger pilots are becoming more rare, Maj and may not be properly skilled and practiced. At times I would go long periods out of flying a DH 82 but when I got at one again I knew that the first landing might not be my prettiest but It would still be safe because if things weren't exactly right I would give it away and go around. Haven't bent anything yet. Nev

Nev, Don't you think that taildragger pilots becoming rare might just be because most of the new types being designed nowadays have a nosewheel ?

 

Just a thought. . . .

 

Phil

 

 

[facthunter]

Phil, If I was marketing a plane I would not present it initially as a tailwheel version unless it was an aerobatic type specifically. I watched Tailwheels become almost obsolete in the 60's. I think the Handley Page HASTINGS was the last 4 engined TW airliner. There must have been occasions when landing that was a bit exciting. The Douglas DC-4 was only slightly bigger but landing it was easy and it's a tricycle gear. Tailwheel will only be a small segment of sport aviation because no matter how good/lucky you are one day you are gonna ground loop it. Not everyone likes them, but I do, as there are a few good reasons why they are more flexible, but I wouldn't try to talk everyone into them. Nev

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Phil, If I was marketing a plane I would not present it initially as a tailwheel version unless it was an aerobatic type specifically. I watched Tailwheels become almost obsolete in the 60's. I think the Handley Page HASTINGS was the last 4 engined TW airliner. There must have been occasions when landing that was a bit exciting. The Douglas DC-4 was only slightly bigger but landing it was easy and it's a tricycle gear. Tailwheel will only be a small segment of sport aviation because no matter how good/lucky you are one day you are gonna ground loop it. Not everyone likes them, but I do, as there are a few good reasons why they are more flexible, but I wouldn't try to talk everyone into them. Nev

Nev, I don't disagree with ANY of the above points, and since the laws of physics ref the C of G positioning will never alter much, the ground loop will always be an "event in waiting" I also adore tailwheels, obviously, learning to fly with them in the first instance did tend to colour my perspective somewhat in the following years. We only have one TW left at our club, ( out of a total of fifty six machines, nine of which were tailwheel. . . ) the last three, Vans 7 & and 3, and a Denney Kitfox Mk 4 were all recently sold because the owners did not feel really "Comfortable" with them. The remaining one is a Kitfox 3, flown under GA rules due to the higher wing loading. This is owned by a veteran TW pilot, who has only groundlooped it once, and other types around a dozen times ( so he tells me !) He is currently removing the 582 Rotax and replacing it with a 912. Perhaps the tailwheel variant will live on as an option in newer designs for those "Niche" pilots ? I fervently hope so . . . Phil.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Tail wheels are like false teeth - originally very handy, but there are smarter options around today.

 

 

[facthunter]

I'm listening. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

caught me.

 

 

[facthunter]

I reckon the tailwheel is the smarter option because the front one is too easily detached on a U/L Nev

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Phil, If I was marketing a plane I would not present it initially as a tailwheel version unless it was an aerobatic type specifically. I watched Tailwheels become almost obsolete in the 60's. I think the Handley Page HASTINGS was the last 4 engined TW airliner. There must have been occasions when landing that was a bit exciting. The Douglas DC-4 was only slightly bigger but landing it was easy and it's a tricycle gear. Tailwheel will only be a small segment of sport aviation because no matter how good/lucky you are one day you are gonna ground loop it. Not everyone likes them, but I do, as there are a few good reasons why they are more flexible, but I wouldn't try to talk everyone into them. Nev

Well thanks for that Nev, your making me look a lot better than I Probabily am !.... I've been in taildraggers since 1986 with thousands of landings and I 've only ground looped once, and had only one runway excursion. The groundloop which was quite spectacular to those watching, was a full 720 deg (around twice In a cloud of dust !) and the result of a tail wheel failure, so once she went it was cut the switch ( only one in those days) and hang on for the ride.

 

The runway excursion was in a Skyfox I was ferrying, and caused by the owner adjusting the bungees the week before without telling me. One side had a loop extra, and once she went off to one side there was no stopping her. Minimum damage.

 

Many people have attempted to write off the conventional landing gear over the years, including Clyde Cessna when he bought out the new 'revolutionary' tryicle landing gear equipped aircraft. However Cessna went on to produce several classic taildraggers such as the C170, C180, C185 and C195, which are still favourites to this day.

 

When WW2 required the training of thousands of pilots quickly, they were all trained strangely enough in taildraggers, such as the Tigermoth, T6 Texan and Harvard, and Cessnas 'Bamboo Bomber . Most of the front line fighters, (Spitfire, Me109, Zero, Mustang, P40) plus many frontline Bombers and freighters were all tail daggers, flown by presumably 'real ' pilots. ( B-17 , Lancaster, Sterling, Halifax, C-46 Curtis Commando and C-47 Dakota)

 

Even now when an ATPL airline pilot wants to go for a fun fly on the weekend, he'll Probabily be in a taildragger RV, or like the CASA administrator, in a taildragger YAK 50.

 

Most, if not all, unlimited aerobatic aircraft and Redbull racers are all taildraggers. With few exceptions,

 

most ag planes are taildraggers, including the impressive Airtractor 502-802 series.

 

There will always be taildraggers, and people will continue to try and write them off, but they, and the pilots who can fly them will always be around in some quantity......I suppose also that there will always be lesser pilots who prefer to stick to the training-wheel up front, and to keep that shiny paint on their rudder pedals !..............Maj......

 

 

[facthunter]

Structurally where weight is a limiting factor and where you are operating out of rough strips, and in rough air conditions the T/W is the best for Ultralight planes. Some are harder to handle than they should be because of shielded rudder or too small a rudder and incorrectly set up tailwheel.(steerable). Having the mainwheels too far forward makes things worse too. .Nev

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Three golden rules for a good taildragger pilot, in order of importance !...............

 

Keep your tail wheel in good condition at all times....

 

Touchdown at correct landing speed every time....not 1 kt faster........

 

Never let the nose get more than 10 degrees off from the direction you want to go !..........................Maj...

 

 

[poteroo]

Three golden rules for a good taildragger pilot, in order of importance !...............Keep your tail wheel in good condition at all times....

 

Touchdown at correct landing speed every time....not 1 kt faster........

 

Never let the nose get more than 10 degrees off from the direction you want to go !..........................Maj...

Have always used .... keep it straight - KEEP IT STRAIGHT - KEEP IT STRAIGHT!!#*#**!!

 

happy days,

 

 

[facthunter]

It gives you a chance to realise the rudder pedals MUST be USED. In a tricycle plane you may operate for a long time without actually using the rudder as an active control. We would all be better pilots if we were still trained on them but that was done years ago with Skyfoxs and plenty got written off. Nev