The demise of GA aviation in Australia

[pmccarthy]

Even the Jab230 has only 230kg useful. 300kg would make all the difference. But it isn't possible in our current regulatory environment. The Avocet looks good, but isn't it limited to 600kg with RA Aus?

 

 

[AVOCET]

Even the Jab230 has only 230kg useful. 300kg would make all the difference. But it isn't possible in our current regulatory environment. The Avocet looks good, but isn't it limited to 600kg with RA Aus?

600kgs , like every thing else ,

 

It was designed for the 760 kg weight increase that didn't happen ,but there's always GA EXPERIMENTAL .

 

Cheers Mike

 

 

[Exadios]

Aviation has always been the domain of the rich, the problem for aviation now is there is a lot of competition for the rich dollar. The world has moved on since GAs peak in the 1960s

Its worse than that. Its for the rich and old. For young people flying an aircraft is as interesting as driving a bus.

 

 

[Hongie]

Its worse than that. Its for the rich and old. For young people flying an aircraft is as interesting as driving a bus.

Not all of us :) I happen to find buses quite invigorating anyway. But seriously, while I love flying, there are not many people my age (29) who are. A lot of work friends express an interest, but none bar a couple have ever taken me up on the offer of a flight....

 

Maybe that says something about their perception of me? Dunno.

 

 

[dodo]

Even the Jab230 has only 230kg useful.

J170 is about 260kg useful, which is getting close,

 

dodo

 

 

[pudestcon]

Its worse than that. Its for the rich and old. For young people flying an aircraft is as interesting as driving a bus.

I've thought along those lines for a while now Exadios - about young people that is. Young people have many other things that generate there interest and adventurous spirit - even if it is in the virtual world. Team that with the cost of aviation and you can see why its a big turn off. I believe GA(recreational) and RAA is dying, if you talk about raw numbers of new pilots to the sector - no facts, just a gut feel. Don't see that in the future there will be the need for too much in recreational aviation, and not much incentive for the young to make a career of being a pilot, given the move towards pilotless aircraft. So it is an old persons pastime, and does require a fair amount of cash. What will be left when us old fogies die off? Nearly empty skies and the few old(young now like Hongie) pilots left to dream about the good ol'days back in 2013.

Pud

 

 

[mAgNeToDrOp]

I'd say a casa also need to relax the Rpl medical

 

 

[Downunder]

Not all of us :) A lot of work friends express an interest, but none bar a couple have ever taken me up on the offer of a flight....Maybe that says something about their perception of me? Dunno.

Ha Ha...Here's me getting all paranoid over the same thing.......Some show an interest but back out at decision time.

Taken a couple of young fellas up but anyone over 30, the fear factor kicks in bad....

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Its worse than that. Its for the rich and old. For young people flying an aircraft is as interesting as driving a bus.

I disagree wholeheartedly with that statement,. . . . as, every young person I have EVER taken for an air experience flight in either a twin, or single GA, or a microlight; has displayed an ENORMOUS interest in how it all works, and were all enthralled by the experience. The only barrier was. . . .THE COST of learning to fly / owning an aircraft / keeping it in a hangar somewhere. . . . .dah di dah di dah. . . .

 

Phil

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I don't know what its like in England but you get paid huge amount of money to kick a football around, boatloads of cash and prominent media profile.

 

If the aviation industry targeted recruiting them, it would have a positive future.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

The aged appearance of the cockpit in an older GA aircraft is a turnoff to passengers. The trim handle looks like the window winder on dad's old Holden. The " dashboard" shakes when the engine starts. The seats might be a bit tatty. Passenger looks around and thinks " would I go flying in a 1960s car?" Maybe if it is an immaculate restoration, not if it is a working vehicle with tired- looking aspects. The latest LSA can also have negative aspects. That CO detector stuck on the panel. Hand- written compass card. ERSA shoved on top of the panel. All of these say that this machine will not be as reliable as my new Korean or Chinese sedan, which has an immaculate interior. The ideal 21st century LSA would be factory produced, interior trim up to car standards, no need for any customisation or change by the owner. Passengers would queue up, but much of the fun would be gone for pilots!

 

The appearance and trim on a new Bristell goes close, according to my wife, but it doesn't offer the 300kg useful load that would clinch the deal for her.

 

 

[lark]

A lot of the trouble with kids these days is if they cant master a new skill in five minutes flat is "its boring" or "this sucks" whether it be taking up a sport, musical instrument or probably learning to fly. Its straight back to the latest moronic iphone app!

 

 

[rgmwa]

Here's an idea to help turn things around. Get high school kids involved in building and flying their own aircraft. This program has been pretty successful in the US. There are more than a dozen of these projects under way over there in schools across the country, run by teachers and experienced volunteer builders. The aircraft are usually offered for sale when completed and then they start on a new one.

 

http://www.airventure.org/news/2013/130731_teen-solos-in-plane-he-helped-build.html

 

rgmwa

 

 

[coljones]

A lot of the trouble with kids these days is if they cant master a new skill in five minutes flat is "its boring" or "this sucks" whether it be taking up a sport, musical instrument or probably learning to fly. Its straight back to the latest moronic iphone app!

You are being a bit tough. When I was a kid trying to connect with the older generation involved fighting against horse racing (or 2 flies crawling up the wall) Can you remember the ABC and radio - wall to wall horses. They then, thank goodness, didn't care about rugby or league. In more modern times racing has been eclipsed by football or cricket or tennis - the ABC is stuffed full of sport. Is it any wonder that kids stuff their heads into i-thingys with great parental and community leadership like that?

 

 

[lark]

You are being a bit tough. When I was a kid trying to connect with the older generation involved fighting against horse racing (or 2 flies crawling up the wall) Can you remember the ABC and radio - wall to wall horses. They then, thank goodness, didn't care about rugby or league. In more modern times racing has been eclipsed by football or cricket or tennis - the ABC is stuffed full of sport. Is it any wonder that kids stuff their heads into i-thingys with great parental and community leadership like that?

Yeah, your right Col its not the kids fault. Its the society they have been brought up in!

 

 

[mAgNeToDrOp]

A lot of the trouble with kids these days is if they cant master a new skill in five minutes flat is "its boring" or "this sucks" whether it be taking up a sport, musical instrument or probably learning to fly. Its straight back to the latest moronic iphone app!

I don't know if being in my early thirty's is classed as being a "kid" but the one and only hurdle for me is the cost, i.e. expendable income (real world/family/life commitments take priority as they should) I guess i'm not earning what I will (hopefully!) be earning in later years so it may not be so much of a problem later on. I only hope i'm healthy enough. I earned my certificate in 2008 but I've only been able to chip away on my Nav's this year. Cost is still an issue. To be honest I've been asking myself if it's really worth it but then again flying is my passion, so enthusiasm or interest is not a problem. I'm not giving it up anytime soon.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Here's an idea to help turn things around. Get high school kids involved in building and flying their own aircraft. This program has been pretty successful in the US. There are more than a dozen of these projects under way over there in schools across the country, run by teachers and experienced volunteer builders. The aircraft are usually offered for sale when completed and then they start on a new one.http://www.airventure.org/news/2013/130731_teen-solos-in-plane-he-helped-build.html

 

rgmwa

Build a plane program is a great idea as getting kids out to an airport to see and touch a real plane for an extended period is increasingly difficult. The down side with these programs is you won't see a bump in aviation sales for 20 years. Its a better program than subsidising kids to become pilots, which looks like one of the biggest wastes of marketing money that aviation has come up with.

 

 

[poteroo]

I disagree wholeheartedly with that statement,. . . . as, every young person I have EVER taken for an air experience flight in either a twin, or single GA, or a microlight; has displayed an ENORMOUS interest in how it all works, and were all enthralled by the experience. The only barrier was. . . .THE COST of learning to fly / owning an aircraft / keeping it in a hangar somewhere. . . . .dah di dah di dah. . . .Phil

Same here Phil. It's not all gloom and doom.

 

Had 2 youngsters on work experience last week - took them out for a TIF.....both loved it, and one has begun studying already. Each year we TIF each member of the local Defence Force Cadets - some 35-40 of them. Several of them have returned to us and are doing their PC or PPL as a result of just one good TIF. Obviously, that TIF is really important, and needs to be 'tailored' to how you, (as the instructor), read the person. Some we do steady,steady - others just love a little bit more DYO flying, and some like to experience a little more exuberance. The more TIF's that we do, with teenagers especially, the better the future for flying.

 

Cost is always a concern. However, we have 4 people learning who are u/18, and contributing to their familys' financial underwriting of the flying. Two of them have gained small, but important, scholarships which spurs them on. I'm of the opinion that these small scholarships, (say <$2500>) are great as this provides just that extra incentive.

 

happy days,

 

 

[Captain Kramer]

Yep 15 years working on military helicopters means absolutely nothing to CASA because they don't fly any of them in civilian street. So basically have to start from scratch to get a licence. I have all the skills to be a LAME but not in the eyes of the bureaucrats in Canberra. I'll just stick to recreational flying and home aircraft building to get my aviation kicks.

 

 

[Exadios]

A lot of the trouble with kids these days is if they cant master a new skill in five minutes flat is "its boring" or "this sucks" whether it be taking up a sport, musical instrument or probably learning to fly. Its straight back to the latest moronic iphone app!

I do not know what the solution is but I do know one thing: The solution will not involve the disrespecting of kids.

 

 

[nong]

Same here Phil. It's not all gloom and doom. Had 2 youngsters on work experience last week - took them out for a TIF.....both loved it, and one has begun studying already. Each year we TIF each member of the local Defence Force Cadets - some 35-40 of them. Several of them have returned to us and are doing their PC or PPL as a result of just one good TIF. Obviously, that TIF is really important, and needs to be 'tailored' to how you, (as the instructor), read the person. Some we do steady,steady - others just love a little bit more DYO flying, and some like to experience a little more exuberance. The more TIF's that we do, with teenagers especially, the better the future for flying.

Cost is always a concern. However, we have 4 people learning who are u/18, and contributing to their familys' financial underwriting of the flying. Two of them have gained small, but important, scholarships which spurs them on. I'm of the opinion that these small scholarships, (say <$2500>) are great as this provides just that extra incentive.

 

happy days,

Piloting is not a religion. I think scholarships are a dopey idea....real feel good stuff. Frankly, there should be hurdles. The requirement for both financial commitment and personal effort, goes some way towards sorting out the chaff.

Anyone can loaf along on a scholarship. When the dough runs out, often, so does the student's feigned interest.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

the RV-12, ... for about $110-$120k..... the age profile of builders/buyers/pilots has a mean of about 60-65, with some builders in their late 70's and beyond.

You can't see it? What 20 year olds have $100K? Aviation has priced itself out of itself.

 

every young person ... The only barrier was. . . .THE COST of learning to fly / owning an aircraft / keeping it in a hangar somewhere. . . .

Well there's stuff in the horizon at least, no thanks to the current industry, can't blame them really (for catering to the above example).

 

 

[rgmwa]

You can't see it? What 20 year olds have $100K? Aviation has priced itself out of itself.Well there's stuff in the horizon at least, no thanks to the current industry, can't blame them really (for catering to the above example).

Not many 60-65 year olds have a spare $100k lying around either Bex, none that I know anyway.

 

rgmwa

 

 

[ayavner]

No, but they are surely more likely to be able to get their hands on a decent proportion of that either through a lifetime of savings and good credit habits, or nothing else to spend it on or a combination of the two.

 

 

[facthunter]

Spare cash in the order of $100,000 plus running and hangaring? costs is not to be sneezed at, so you have got to be fair dinkum. Kids are not basically much different to when I was teaching them in the early sixties. I regularly talk at length to some on the train, usually college/university students, and they are ok.

 

It might have something to do with the way we present flying. Perhaps they perceive that unless you do show aerobatics or something, dramatic it is pretty tame. The developed skills are the point of it all and the challenge and possibilities of getting your plane around the place without it being a "chancy" or "hairy" experience , should be the aim. I regard all trips as an adventure to have your awareness sharpened and notice things. You don't have forever so make the most of it all. People climb mountains because they are there. The opportunity to fly planes is there too, (I hope) so either you take it up or you don't. It's a worthwhile experience (as far as I'm concerned) and can change your view on things. Nev