The demise of GA aviation in Australia

[fly_tornado]

Well I wouldn't want to guess with GA, but RAA will still be around and hopefully thriving .........................Maj...

you are already starting to sound like Eugene Reid!

 

 

[poteroo]

rgmwa - was in JT yesterday and my contacts tell me it's really quiet. Looked it too - could only see 1 trainer in the circuit and the wx was ok, although it's late winter and things have been rough lately. The 2 schools' CFI's that I know well, said they'd been laying off instructors. There is a shortage of Grade 1's out there because they've been pulled into the FIFO companies over at Perth, but not much work for Grade 3's partly because there are no Grade 1's to supervise them - even were there to be heaps of students. Maybe 'Royals' are on a roll with their activities....but I'm skeptical? May it change. happy days,

 

 

[rgmwa]

rgmwa - was in JT yesterday and my contacts tell me it's really quiet. Looked it too - could only see 1 trainer in the circuit and the wx was ok, although it's late winter and things have been rough lately. The 2 schools' CFI's that I know well, said they'd been laying off instructors. There is a shortage of Grade 1's out there because they've been pulled into the FIFO companies over at Perth, but not much work for Grade 3's partly because there are no Grade 1's to supervise them - even were there to be heaps of students. Maybe 'Royals' are on a roll with their activities....but I'm skeptical? May it change. happy days,

I wouldn't say that RACWA is necessarily on a roll, because they just replaced the instructors who left, but even so business must at least be steady. I got that information from one of their senior instructors at Murrayfield, and they are doing good business down there at the moment. Had a 172 and 3x152's which is the most I've seen there. They are gradually updating their aircraft too, although with less ancient models rather than new ones or different types. Still, operating a flying school is a tough way to make a living. I wouldn't want to do it.

 

rgmwa

 

 

[poteroo]

I wouldn't say that RACWA is necessarily on a roll, because they just replaced the instructors who left, but even so business must at least be steady. I got that information from one of their senior instructors at Murrayfield, and they are doing good business down there at the moment. Had a 172 and 3x152's which is the most I've seen there. They are gradually updating their aircraft too, although with less ancient models rather than new ones or different types. Still, operating a flying school is a tough way to make a living. I wouldn't want to do it.rgmwa

Not in Jandakot anyway. Murrayfield probably has a bit more activity because RACWA offer lower rates down there, and you get more value for the dollar with less traffic. Lots of people in the maintenance and ancillary fields are quitting and moving elsewhere because of the massive hikes in hangar and block lease rates at JT. In some cases it's over $100/m2. You can't pay that level and expect to keep afloat. At Jandakot the owners have levelled the place and leased it out for warehouses and similar - the original purpose of aviation has long since been forgotten! As usual - Feds turn a blind eye to adherence to the original ALOP contract. happy days,

 

 

[rgmwa]

Yes, JT used to be in the middle of the scrub until the government sold the lease to JAH (Jandakot Airport Holdings) a few years ago. Now hundreds of acres have been cleared and it's on the edge of a big industrial/commercial estate, with sheds almost up to the hangars and more being built. A few months ago they installed parking meters in the airport area too. That didn't go down well with the users, but they couldn't do much about it. Then there's the landing fees that keep going up. It makes it hard for the existing operators and maintenance shops to keep paying the rent, so they have to charge higher fees too or move out. From a developer's point of view an airfield is just a waste of space. Fortunately the RFDS and Police Air Wing are based out there, and that's possibly part of the reason that JT wasn't moved much further out of Perth. There was talk of that at one stage and it could still happen I guess.

 

rgmwa

 

 

[68volksy]

just have a look at Canberra itself all GA has virtual disappeared.

I have to take exception to that statement. Canberra Airport is possibly one of the nicest and most positive aviation environments around. The airport provides the GA pilots and aircraft owners with a great building free of charge. The building has toilets, whiteboard, plenty of seating and a great big verandah area where you can sit and watch the world go by. They also allow for the flying school to provide free tea, coffee and biscuits to pilots arriving and departing in the building. The aero club also gets access to another building away from the airport free of charge. The Aero Club is very active and always looking for new members.

 

The only downsides are the only parking for aircraft is outdoors and there is a secure gate where you have to wait a few minutes for an airport worker to let you through. I do feel for the maintenance businesses that needed to move due to the high rent being charged though. A flying school was able to adapt to the situation but those businesses could not.

 

It's just over $2,000 per annum to park an aircraft outside which covers both landing and parking fees though.

 

 

[facthunter]

Australia is a big place. The major cities have expensive land values and pressure to "convert" aerodromes to high density,"Gloria Somes" ot Mc Mansions and supermarkets is propelled by money. Perhaps getting a few kms out of towns and finding largish poor soil paddocks,( well drained) where you could have a housing and airport development with emphasis on low cost. People with kids off their hands could capitalise their current houses and move to the new environment. With a bit of imagination and foresight you could have secure Houses, sheds, hangars, for retirees,( or close to) Overnight accommodation and shuttle bus to town etc You would need a fair number to provide the capital for the amenities. Nev

 

 

[Guest airsick]

I have to take exception to that statement. Canberra Airport is possibly one of the nicest and most positive aviation environments around. The airport provides the GA pilots and aircraft owners with a great building free of charge. The building has toilets, whiteboard, plenty of seating and a great big verandah area where you can sit and watch the world go by. They also allow for the flying school to provide free tea, coffee and biscuits to pilots arriving and departing in the building. The aero club also gets access to another building away from the airport free of charge. The Aero Club is very active and always looking for new members.The only downsides are the only parking for aircraft is outdoors and there is a secure gate where you have to wait a few minutes for an airport worker to let you through. I do feel for the maintenance businesses that needed to move due to the high rent being charged though. A flying school was able to adapt to the situation but those businesses could not.

 

It's just over $2,000 per annum to park an aircraft outside which covers both landing and parking fees though.

It's not quite all roses volksy. If you want maintenance done there is, as you mentioned, no one around to do it. If you want to do it yourself you have to cart tools back and forth from the car and work on the grass due to no hangar space. If you forget something you can't just duck out to the car and get it. Security can take more than a few minutes on a regular basis, I've had to wait more than 45 minutes on more than one occasion. There's no parking unless you have a valid permit (I've even received a fine despite having a valid permit displayed!).

 

The aero club is using some old military singles quarters as a club house. The living room is small, the bedrooms all but useless for the club and it is miles from the airfield. Not exactly a great social setting (when was the last time you saw a gathering there on the weekend like you would at Holbrook, Tumut, Moruya, Euchuca, etc.?). The club has evolved into a virtual club with most members not knowing each other aside from a few regular flyers getting together for a formation flight or something similar. It is essentially a local Hertz dealer providing aircraft rental to Canberra pilots with the odd pilots night organised here and there which is impressive given the circumstances under which they operate without the traditional facilities of many other clubs.

 

If you are a regular Canberra flyer you'll realise that it can be a real pain in the rear to fly from here and that the club has been dealt a less than ideal hand by the airport. It isn't the most positive experience by far. The airport provides services because they are obliged to, not because they want to. There's a big list of airports that are much more amenable to GA and RA flying than Canberra.

 

 

[68volksy]

I think that's all very harsh. The airport has been great to the flying school. The Club guys are a great bunch who are dealing with the situation as best they can. Getting a clubhouse for free can't be sneezed at - let alone the Gate 3 facility free of charge. There are always pilots coming and going from the Gate 3 facility and since the school's put in tea and coffee facilities they're hanging around a lot more. Plus there's students coming and going 7 days a week who are always a happy lot. Downside is paying for parking and waiting to be let in by the bouncer but i see no reason why more people aren't hanging around on a regular basis. If more people hung around then I think there's more chance of some more being done to accommodate them.

 

Mind you coming from Goulburn where the school was paying $16,000 per annum for two aircraft, the public loo has been locked for two years and the place has turned into a ghost town could have some influence on my feelings about Canberra...

 

 

[bell47]

Since I became a free agent, I have spent a few days knocking on doors on Bankstown Airport trying to sell my services. The future for General Aviation and, by flow-on, Recreational Aviation looks bleak.Many of the doors I knocked on were on empty hangars with "For Lease" signs on them. Often when my knocks were answered, the occupants told me that the amount of work had dropped off significantly, to the extent that many of the older people were considering closing up and heading off into retirement. These are people with years of experience in some of the more specialised areas of aircraft maintenance such as propeller repair and overhaul, carburetor repair and overhaul, and instrument repair and overhaul. The worst part of this scenario is that there are no young people working in these areas and having the skills passed on to them.

 

Then yesterday I was heard a rumour that the Padstow TAFE is going to stop providing courses for apprentices working in the aviation industry. This year there are 19 apprentices in Year One. What are they going to do if the TAFE closes the course? What are aircraft owners going to do in the next 10 to 15 years when there is no one qualified to do those specialist repairs that come up sometimes on a regular basis.

 

For Recreational flyers, where are we going to get the people to recommend others for L2 licences? Where are we going to get the qualified people who will be L4s?

 

Australia - the Lucky Country.

 

Bloody Oath - lucky if you can find anyone who knows more than how to assemble a Big Whopper Dinner meal.

 

Old Man Emu

I have just started my first year as an apprentice aircraft engineer in GA, this year in tafe at padstow there is 7 first years in the class in which 4 of them just do gas turbine engines, so that leaves 3 of us to become Engine and Airframe engineers, there is also still talk if shutting padstow tafe down and moving the whole operation to tamworth, but there is only one other RTO approved by casa in NSW but they don't train the apprentices, from what I've heard they want to but there is something political in the way. So it seems as every year there is less & less apprentices training to become LAME's

 

 

[Yenn]

One of the things that is not helping GA is the attitude of AOPA. They will not help GA by their present stance of whingeing that RAAus is doing too well. Have a look at their submission to the government inquiry into CASA.

 

There seems to be a lessening of interest in flying all round. Those people who used to fly at my local strip every weekend are now often doing other things, such as going around the country by caravan, or gone fishing.

 

We can't blame it on the high cost of flying, as ultralights are really not expensive to fly, compared to using a tinnie with a 75hp outboard for example. It just seems to be alack of interest and a lack of younger people being attracted to flying. We can't blame it on lack of maintenance as most ultralight pilots do their own maintenance.

 

 

[Downunder]

One of the things that is not helping GA is the attitude of AOPA. They will not help GA by their present stance of whingeing that RAAus is doing too well. Have a look at their submission to the government inquiry into CASA.There seems to be a lessening of interest in flying all round. Those people who used to fly at my local strip every weekend are now often doing other things, such as going around the country by caravan, or gone fishing.

We can't blame it on the high cost of flying, as ultralights are really not expensive to fly, compared to using a tinnie with a 75hp outboard for example. It just seems to be alack of interest and a lack of younger people being attracted to flying. We can't blame it on lack of maintenance as most ultralight pilots do their own maintenance.

How much and how many hours for a skippers ticket.

 

Much easier (and cheaper) to get into and out of boating than flying.......unfortunately

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Ultralights seem the answer for young blokes from a modern convenience perspective but the prices of them are just unrealistic for what you get. Actually just unrealistic period.

 

You guys have gotten used to and obviously numbed by the price of aviation but to new young people looking in from the outside comparable to parallel activities, the prices are shocking.

 

For an exercise some of you should drop into a dirtbike or jetski shop and see what you get for your money. A dirtbike's 50hp pushing 100kgs is an absolute weapon and a thrill a second but quite safe, utterly reliable and very low maintenance all for $10K and that's what you're competing against.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

RAA aviation is certainly alive and well here in NQld , with more planes coming to fly-ins all the time, be they formal or informal events. This weekends Catalina memorial at Bowen has 20 aircraft registered with the event organisers for attendance. My guess is there will be more than that...............Maj...

Maj whats the general style plane that is flown in up there (yes I know how long is a piece of string), I imagine mostly 2 place, high wing due to the heat/sunshine?

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Good mix of just about everything really...lot of Jabs, Lightwings, Savannahs, Drifter, Pipistrel, Carbon cub, Pelican, thruster, Gazzelle, Zenith 601 and 701, 582 and 912 trikes...you name it....

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Good mix of just about everything really...lot of Jabs, Lightwings, Savannahs, Drifter, Pipistrel, Carbon cub, Pelican, thruster, Gazzelle, Zenith 601 and 701, 582 and 912 trikes...you name it....

Thanks for your reply :)

 

 

[frank marriott]

Desire is what is lacking these days. You have to WANT to fly.

 

Flying has always been expensive but as a percentage of your weekly wage it is no greater now then it was in the 70s when I started.

 

I used to work a second job/overtime to pay for my flying training - only dipped into savings for my cpl as the first of the 6 subjects was close to expiring by the time I had completed the last one (expired after 24mths if you hadn't done the licence and could only sit on designated days, about every 3 or 4 months)

 

 

[SDQDI]

Wanting to fly is very important but I think most young people dream of flying. Publicity is lacking inasmuch as people have no idea what options are available there is still a big stigma of aviation being expensive (which is mostly true but there are options) so people don't chase it up.

 

Not sure how many places interact with high school aged kids but seems a lot more could be done. But then you still have their parents to convince.

 

The local air shows do wonders for education and interaction and are an awesome opportunity to involve the community. Gunnedah has had a pretty nifty family friendly 'air show' with tifs on the side the last couple of years and it is good to see all the youngsters along for a look. No doubt most of the flyins help.

 

In regards to the fact that its no different percentage of your wage that is probably right but what about the level of regulation was that the same? It seems that getting a boat licence and going fishing is a lot easier even though the rules for that are also more demanding now.

 

So I guess having the desire to fly is only a part of it, finding the right path to flying is a challenge and getting to the end seems to be getting harder but boy oh boy once you get there it is very rewarding:ecstatic:

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Desire is what is lacking these days. You have to WANT to fly.

There's just a far greater choice now to temp kids in many directions (and in no direction, i.e. computer games), hell I wish I had some of those choices as a teenager.

 

We used to pull our billy carts across town to the better hills and race now a kid does the same thing on his Playstation without leaving the house.

 

Flying has always been expensive but as a percentage of your weekly wage it is no greater now then it was in the 70s when I started.

I hear this over and over and the math may be correct but it just doesn't seem to work out that way in the real world. Back then you made a choice and stuck with it till the end and then upgraded or moved on, now you can get the upgrade up front and the motorcycle and the jetski and the house with onsuite, dining room and 4 bedrooms, i.e. they just keep throwing money at you and you just end up in a world of pain and the plane is the expensive non-requirement so you dump that to keep your house but keep the bike and jetski.

 

The answer is to reduce the cost of flying.

 

 

[rgmwa]

The answer is to reduce the cost of flying.

That's certainly part of the answer, but not all of it. It's more about changing aspirations.

 

rgmwa

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Yeah well give us some of those real cheap Chinese engines then.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

That's certainly part of the answer, but not all of it. It's more about changing aspirations.rgmwa

I believe I had aspirations as strong as you can get when I was a teenager and I worked full time and multiple part time jobs to try to achieve it and never could reach my goal and eventually gave up to enjoy what I could afford. So in my case at least it was everything to do with the cost.

 

Yeah well give us some of those real cheap Chinese engines then.

Those ones that are 5 times cheaper, 17 times better and made of carbon fibre you mean?

 

It's all a con mate, didn't you know?

 

 

[rgmwa]

I believe I had aspirations as strong as you can get when I was a teenager and I worked full time and multiple part time jobs to try to achieve it and never could reach my goal and eventually gave up to enjoy what I could afford. So in my case at least it was everything to do with the cost.

Yes, but the issue is about how flying relates to the aspirations of today's teenagers, not when you and I were their age.

 

rgmwa

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Yes, but the issue is about how flying relates to the aspirations of today's teenagers, not when you and I were their age.rgmwa

Sorry rgmwa, I don't see how unreachable targets (cost) is any different now than then and how it still doesn't kill aspirations the same way.

 

If the target is reachable then you will tempt people because it becomes a competitive option.

 

 

[johnm]

could be the difference is at the beginning you try and figure whats in front of you and go for it ........................ and the other - when older - is you reflect on 'what the hell was that all about'