The demise of GA aviation in Australia

[Phil Perry]

The aged appearance of the cockpit in an older GA aircraft is a turnoff to passengers. The trim handle looks like the window winder on dad's old Holden. The " dashboard" shakes when the engine starts. The seats might be a bit tatty. The latest LSA can also have negative aspects. That CO detector stuck on the panel. Hand- written compass card. ERSA shoved on top of the panel. .

Imagine how a first - time passenger in a UK reg home built aircraft must feel when they see the mandatory large label on the panel which reads

 

"OCCUPANT WARNING - THIS AIRCRAFT IS NOT CERTIFIED TO ANY INTERNATIONAL AIRWORTHINESS STANDARD"

 

Help. . . . Lemme out . . . . .!!

 

 

[rgmwa]

Sorry rgmwa, I don't see how unreachable targets (cost) is any different now than then and how it still doesn't kill aspirations the same way.If the target is reachable then you will tempt people because it becomes a competitive option.

What I was getting at is that although flying has always been expensive and anything that reduces the cost and makes it more affordable is good, I don't think that flying itself has the same appeal to the present generation as it did to ours. Too many other distractions, and flying has become so commonplace that it's viewed as just another way to get somewhere, not an end in itself. When I was a teenager in the 60's and had a rare opportunity to fly somewhere, it was an adventure and I sat glued to the window the whole trip. And not just because there wasn't much else to do - I was just fascinated by being in the air. I was awed when a pilot walked past because here was a person who knew how to make an aircraft fly, and that fired my imagination. However, kids these days and their parents too for that matter, barely glance out the window as they clamp their headsets on and start flicking channels. The `romance' of flying, for want of a better term, that existed when I was a teenager and that made flying and becoming a pilot so appealing has gone for most people now. There are and always will be exceptions of course. Some kids will still want to learn to fly, as will some of those older people who never had the opportunity before, so the work you are doing to make engines cheaper and aircraft more affordable is very important and welcome, but will it be enough to turn things around significantly in the long run? I'd like to think so but I'm not so sure.

 

rgmwa

 

 

[facthunter]

Most of the interesting stuff is being done by older people who are getting even OLDER. The digital phenomenon might be a substitute for reality. Kids sit bored out of their minds if you take the Iphone or whatever mindless gadget they get hooked on, from them.

 

It's also got to GO straight away. No long term hedonism for them. It also has to be COOL in a different way to flying a Drifter in winter in Victoria. It has to be something that impresses their peer group or at least gets a cautious approval. Being bombarded with advertising pressures may be part of it. It's hard for them to be different to others. Kids basically are no better or worse than they were a long time ago. Our society has changed so the simple things are not noticed. ( There's no money if they make their own fun) Hence the boredom..Nev

 

 

[ben87r]

"Some kids will still want to learn to fly, as will some of those older people who never had the opportunity before"

 

The kids are still flying, but, doing full time type CPL courses and then straight off to get a job, never to be seen at "the local" airstrip. Growth in the smaller sectors will have to come from the "more experienced gentleman."

 

 

[Powerin]

If you have a look at newspapers from around 100 years ago ( eg. Trove at the National Library ) you see that they complain about the same sort of things in the kids of their day that we do now. Young people never change it seems and neither do we old fogeys

 

So, what's the answer to the cost of aviation? It will cost you about the same for a small, low tech, carburetted aero engine as it does for a hi tech mid sized car which includes a more powerful hi tech fuel injected engine. Aircraft are still mostly hand made (even if the parts are CNCed) so it is a good way of turning a few $1000 worth of metal or fibre and resin into a $50K airframe which has about the same complexity as a bicycle. Even rag and tube will cost you minimum $20K for a few bits of fabric and aluminium tube and a glorified 2 stroke outboard motor (or dare I say a snowmobile motor).

 

Perhaps Bex will be the saviour with his new engine!

 

 

[SDQDI]

You don't get a nice sustainable growth from 'older generations' yes today's technology takes a lot away from it but if you can show the younger generations how much fun it is they will keep coming back.

 

At Easter we had a few people staying with young boys 5-15 total tech wizzes couldn't get there eyes off their screens until I pulled the plane out. Took them all for a fly and every one of them loved it I didn't do anything special just a fifteen minute flight each, except the eldest who was scared to go he went after all the others and once he was up didn't want to go back so he was up for half an hour.

 

Like I said before I'm sure each young boy (don't know enough about girls to comment but maybe they are the same) dreams of flying but just aren't showed the path, how many aero clubs interact with a local school?

 

That still doesn't solve the money problem but it sows a seed for when opportunity arises

 

 

[facthunter]

The biggest problem with flying now is the 8ullsh!t It's choking everything. I doubt there are enough really experienced people around to staff CASA properly, and who would want to work there. When I graduated with my PPL (big deal) with a few others, DG Anderson ( the director of Civil Aviation) came to Newcastle and shook our hands. Pilots were considered an asset to the country. IF we were young enough the hourly rate was subsidised. There was a Commonwealth Scholarship Scheme about, which I was lucky enough to obtain.. Still had to spend the cost of about half a house to get to the CPL and Instructor rating. My army camp time paid for that. I'm not really surprised the interest is not there. It needs to be something you look forward to. If you can get a good group who work together well it helps, because it needs to be a social thing. I couldn't face building a plane by myself, now. Too soul destroying Nev

 

 

[rgmwa]

At Easter we had a few people staying with young boys 5-15 total tech wizzes couldn't get there eyes off their screens until I pulled the plane out. Took them all for a fly and every one of them loved it I didn't do anything special just a fifteen minute flight each, except the eldest who was scared to go he went after all the others and once he was up didn't want to go back so he was up for half an hour.Like I said before I'm sure each young boy (don't know enough about girls to comment but maybe they are the same) dreams of flying but just aren't showed the path, how many aero clubs interact with a local school? That still doesn't solve the money problem but it sows a seed for when opportunity arises

I took my 10 year old grandson up for the first time couple of weeks ago. He and his older brother are confirmed video pros with 3-D computer games coming out of their ears. We did a bit of flying around, some steep turns and stalls etc. I had to lend him my old camera because the battery in his phone had died (). He loved it. Said it was the "most awesome" experience he had ever had. Maybe there's hope for the younger generation yet.

 

 

[rgmwa]

The kids are still flying, but, doing full time type CPL courses and then straight off to get a job, never to be seen at "the local" airstrip. Growth in the smaller sectors will have to come from the "more experienced gentleman."

I'm not so sure about that Ben, although I hope it's true. One of the instructors I know at the aero club has gone back to his refrigeration job to make ends meet and now only instructs part-time. Another pilot who lives not far from me (he's in his mid-30's and was a SAR pilot and Dornier check captain) has gone back to university to study mechanical engineering. He still flies for the airlines but wants to move on. My former instructor's daughter is an exceptional pilot and now flies for a regional airline in WA after flying for subsistence money with a charter operator in Broome to build up her hours. Poor pay, sharing a house with 4-5 others, flying in any weather and finally getting the proverbial lucky break. I'm probably one of the "more experienced gentlemen" you refer to, not as pilot but just that I've been around for while. I learned to fly relatively recently and am building an aircraft. I'm a member of two or three clubs and so I suppose I'm doing my bit to contribute to the smaller sector growth that Bex and others also underpin. When I look around at my fellow club members, sadly, I see mostly people who look like me. However, the industry needs many more people like you. I really hope you do well as a professional pilot, and also hope that there are enough people like me and those younger than me to keep the other sectors thriving.

 

rgmwa

 

 

[coljones]

The biggest problem with flying now is the 8ullsh!t It's choking everything. I doubt there are enough really experienced people around to staff CASA properly, and who would want to work there. When I graduated with my PPL (big deal) with a few others, DG Anderson ( the director of Civil Aviation) came to Newcastle and shook our hands. Pilots were considered an asset to the country. IF we were young enough the hourly rate was subsidised. There was a Commonwealth Scholarship Scheme about, which I was lucky enough to obtain.. Still had to spend the cost of about half a house to get to the CPL and Instructor rating. My army camp time paid for that. I'm not really surprised the interest is not there. It needs to be something you look forward to. If you can get a good group who work together well it helps, because it needs to be a social thing. I couldn't face building a plane by myself, now. Too soul destroying Nev

Was that at Broadmeadows or Maitland?

 

 

[Yenn]

With the attitude today of retailers and big business, plus the banks, there is little hope of getting young people flying. there are so many good things advertised and it is so easy to borrow money to pay for the instant gratification. Then comes the realisation that flying is more expensive and takes time, so why bother. Just buy another gadget like an iPad or computer and send the wife out to work. Instant gratification is the aim.

 

I learnt to fly, putting money aside each week and flying whenever I could. It wasn't quick, but I had no other distractions to buy and my wife didn't go out to work, but still the kids didn't starve.

 

 

[facthunter]

Started at District Park Col, (which you could call Broadmeadows. I used to go to the re-unions. a few years ago) The latter part was at Rutherford and I did a bit at Bankstown in between as I worked in Sydney for about 5 years Teaching before going back to Newcastle where I completed the CPL and Instructor rating at Rutherford (West Maitland) Near the cotton mills. also did a bit at Cessnock. ( Pokolbin).. Nev

 

 

[facthunter]

There are few good jobs available and you need a bit of luck to get them. You always needed a bit of luck, but it is worse now. Airlines would train you once you were employed. That way they kept some control as to the suitability of the courses and often did the entire endorsements with their own resources. New types were done overseas till the simulators etc were established here. A CASA rep usually went along too. Today you front up with an endorsement . There are significant differences in one type of aircraft depending which airline ordered it from new. Technical people went and inspected the aircraft on the assembly line. "Orphan" aircraft or "White Tails" would sometimes go through but mostly they were designated for a particular carrier before the manufacture was started. You would expect more "BUGS" in a white tail. Nev

 

 

[ben87r]

Thanks RG.

 

Half the issue is that people don't want to move to where the work is.. Want to be a pilot?? Don't want to do instructing??? Move to the NT, all of us who have moved up here have scored jobs (some better then others) in weeks, there are 100's of under 30s here working and moving up in their career. I've never flown in busier airspace then Arnhem Land! It's mental.

 

 

[rgmwa]

Thanks RG.Half the issue is that people don't want to move to where the work is.. Want to be a pilot?? Don't want to do instructing??? Move to the NT, all of us who have moved up here have scored jobs (some better then others) in weeks, there are 100's of under 30s here working and moving up in their career. I've never flown in busier airspace then Arnhem Land! It's mental.

Yes, lots of young pilots from WA head north to build hours and experience too. Good place to learn quickly I would think. My instructor's daughter had to cope with some pretty challenging weather conditions at times as well as find her way around the outback. Hope it all works out and the right opportunities come your way. (My instructor's son is a Qantas captain, so it can be done).

 

rgmwa

 

 

[Bennyboy320]

As I've stated before, RAA offers a great variety of brand new & hi tech a/c for the individual to fly at a reasonable price, who wants to pay $300/hr to hire a 40 y.o dinosaur.

 

 

[facthunter]

The price is relative to the wages of the period. An average weeks wages bought you about one and a half hours dual when I started. Your are paying less than half of that today , so are much better off.

 

The Old Dinasaurs in my day were Austers Tigers and Chippy's Stinsons Avro's Fairchilds etc. They are all ok if they stay together in the air.

 

Sure, go fly in the Territory. It was always available and it will be good experience if the wet season doesn't catch you out, but that's up to you. Nev

 

 

[Bennyboy320]

If GA is indeed on the decline where are all those hangar slots for rent in SE Qld?

 

 

[turboplanner]

As I've stated before, RAA offers a great variety of brand new & hi tech a/c for the individual to fly at a reasonable price, who wants to pay $300/hr to hire a 40 y.o dinosaur.

The cost of buying or renting a GA aircraft is about ten times what it was 40 years ago, and incomes has risen to meet or exceed that level.

 

There always were people who hired out 40 yo aircraft, even 40 years ago, but apart from some country areas there are plenty of new aircraft to hire at reasonable rates.

 

The aging aircraft market started to begin when Cessna etc ceased production because of potential Product Liability claims in the US, but that soon died out; I haven' researched it but I wouldn't be surprised if you've been able to buy a new C172 for the last 20 years.

 

This thread is mis-described by the OP - demise means the death of a person, and even if you stretch it GA is by no means dead, rising to a post-war peak around 1989 and then dropping back about 30%, possibly due equally to the retirement of wartime pilots, the opportunities that recreational aircraft offered, and the reduction in charter when cheap airline flights became available, allowing people to cross the country then hire a car to cross the last 100 km.

 

Maintenance facilities for all forms of mechanical devices have reduced the most, as longer life parts built to better tolerances from better materials in better designs have started to go into the equipment. For example, Bedford trucks usually needed a new engine at around 50,000 to 80,000 km and their replacements today usually make 800,000 so most fleet workshops closed years ago.

 

It's just a different world with a whole lot of different problems and opportunities.

 

It's interesting with some of these depressed type threads to see who is likely to have been through the interminable "coping with change" training that the larger companies have conducted for the past 30 years or so, and the people who have been through those sessions, boring and unnecessary as we all thought they were, seem to be a lot more possible than the self employed or farmers or people brought up in small companies whose owners never did any personnel enhancement.

 

 

[SDQDI]

and the people who have been through those sessions, boring and unnecessary as we all thought they were, seem to be a lot more possible than the self employed or farmers or people brought up in small companies whose owners never did any personnel enhancement.

I'm guessing you mean positive rather than possible.

While us 'farmers' may not always enjoy change I think we adapt really well and I don't think you will find another industry with as much innovation all to keep abreast of change. We (farmers) might have a bit of poor me syndrome but I think as a whole we deal well with change which should be obvious or we wouldn't still be here.

 

Lol anyway I just get grumpy when people class us all as simpletons who don't or can't cope with change. No offence meant to you turbo

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yes, should have typed positive.

 

I picked a bad example in farmers, was thinking of the isolated people who haven't kept pace with changing methods; most have been through as many changes as city people and kept ahead of the action, and I certainly wouldn't classify them as simpletons, even the one in the old style classic occupations.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Like this 74 year old wood cutter, who looked for a better way: http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_eye/2014/04/30/vipukirves_by_heikki_k_rn_a_new_and_improved_ax_that_makes_chopping_wood.html

 

 

[facthunter]

When wool was a Pound a pound there were a lot of cockeys with aircraft. Tamworth had Rollers everywhere A lot of the old wooden aircraft were still flying. I had a go with a Gypsy Moth with a historic rego, VH ULM but it was just co-incidence. Nothing to do with Charles although I did know a relative, Frank Ulm who ran a Ford dealership in Sunbury Vic.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I was only thinking of the pound a pound wool a few days ago.

 

That's around $4.40 per kg in 1951.

 

We'd be dressed in rags if that had been inflated at cpi

 

 

[facthunter]

If you ran sheep you weren't complaining at the time. They sold a lot of Cessna's (and the other two, too) If you had a bonanza you bought a bonanza. Nev