170 v 230 v 430

[Guest Condog]

Hi all ive done a lot of reading and have narrowed it down to these 3

 

Background. Father and grandfather to share ownership for flights and possibly a trip around aus. Son is already a student pilot with his ultimate goal to atpl.

 

This plane is for dad and grandad , if it can somehow contribute to sons hour then thats a bonus not a requirement.

 

The 170 is more then adequate..

 

Want to know if say i wanted to cruise at 105 knots whats the fuel consumption in each.

 

I like the sound of the 3300 but if its not necesary and just guzzles more fuel then maybe the 170 is best.

 

I weigh 100 kg grandad weighs 67 kg son weighs 65 kg and growing rapidly. Will end up over 6 ft.

 

Will be based at PMQ NSW.

 

If registration as vh can allow son to clock up lots and lots of hours that contribute then that would be great. And once he is moved on we could drop it back to rra???

 

I would like to hear opinions on 2200 v 3300

 

Also which ones might be best to help him clock hours. Im under impression that can only be done with 230 and 430??

 

Thanks

 

 

[quentas]

If there are 3 of you then the only choice is a J430. Around 240kgs usable weight full fuel. 120 knots 22lph. 5ish hours endurance with reserve.

 

 

[Guest Condog]

Hi there will only ever be 2 people in the plan, there is just 3 pilots

 

 

[cheyenne]

G/Condog,

 

You will find the 170 would have a lot more room sitting in the seats, I have flown my J160 to Broome,Darwin, Alice Springs,and Port Augusta with my wife and plenty of space. We had a J230 with us on one trip he got there a little faster and when we filled up the fuel tanks the J230 was always only about 10 litres more.

 

Adrian

 

 

[Guest Condog]

Thanks guys . In terms of fuel thats insignificant enough for me. So is there any major benefits in either plane for either reason. Or between the engines, reliability or safety.

 

 

[Guest Condog]

Also wgy is there more leg room in a 160 then a 230 ?

 

 

[facthunter]

I would go for the 230. Faster, the six cylinder motor is smoother. The extra fuel is not important. Handles hot conditions better performance wise. Use faster climb speed..Nev

 

 

[Guest Condog]

Does usable weight only include pilots and cargo. or is fuel included.

 

 

[Keenaviator]

I would go for the 230. Faster, the six cylinder motor is smoother. The extra fuel is not important. Handles hot conditions better performance wise. Use faster climb speed..Nev

I've always found it odd that people say the 6 is smoother than the 4. I've always felt that the 6 has more resonances and low frequency noise than the 4. This also applied to the Continental 0200 (4) and 0300 (6).

 

Laurie

 

 

[quentas]

Does usable weight only include pilots and cargo. or is fuel included

For the most useable carrying capacity, the J170 has 340kg empty, max 600kg. J160 has 320kg empty, max 540kg. J230 has 360 empty, max 600kg. Fuel would be around 95kgs extra full.

 

 

[bedwa38]

We had a J230 with us on one trip he got there a little faster and when we filled up the fuel tanks the J230 was always only about 10 litres more

I was just thinking about this myself today, I'm trying to justify to myself the purchase of a 230 or 430. If you look at the fuel consumption as litres per mile instead of litres per hour, its not much more than the 170.

 

 

[frank marriott]

It really goes without saying but a large difference between 3300 & 2200 engine at 600kg MTOW with a high DH.

 

 

[Camel]

Condog. Do you intend to buy new or second hand, I have a J230 with under 200 hours to sell, based very close to YPMQ at a very reasonable price.

 

 

[cheyenne]

Condog. If you looking for second hand the mate is selling his J230 due to ill health it 94hrs on the clock and all ways been hangered.

 

Adrian

 

 

[facthunter]

Keen A, A four cylinder motor has a situation twice each revolution where all pistons are stationary. This reduces their flywheel effect at those points to zero. A six cylinder motor never has more than two (out of six not four out of four) stopped, there fore much less need for a flywheel. The prop is most of the flywheel and there is less load imposed upon it. I have flown cont 0-300's in both direct and geared versions. Much more smooth than the four cylinder Lycoming replacements in the later C-i72's and much less of a ".clunker" to fly behind. In the same airframe you get a good comparison there. The thing about the Jabiru engine is that you are comparing a "small" engine with another which is one and a half times bigger and the extra power makes the pilot aware of it when getting into one from the other. Nev

 

 

[68volksy]

You said the son's hour building is not a major consideration however i'd just like to say that if your son is looking to build hours towards a CPL then the J170 will be really of no use to him. Even more so if he's looking to get a job once he gets the CPL. Best option to help your son would be something with a constant speed prop at least. A retractable undercarriage would be handy also. Something like a Piper Arrow would be ideal. If he shows up to an employer with a few hundred hours in an arrow or even a 182 or Piper 180 (or C210, C206, Piper Charger) then he'll stand a good chance at getting that first job. If he's just showing J170 hours then his chances will be very slim.

 

You'll find an Arrow for $80-120k. Goes without saying that it would be a more comfortable round australia trip also! Piper Cherokee for $30k would be worth more to your son also and carry a couple of big bags...

 

All that is probably useless to you though if you've already done the research!

 

 

[Bandit12]

Good point Volksy - hours in a 182 are probably the most useful for a new CPL. But I suspect that ongoing costs would hurt the pocket much, much more.

 

 

[Bandit12]

A word of warning for any aspiring CPL pilot - make sure you get the Class 1 medical before you start training. I have known two people who were mostly through their 150hr CPL course when they went for the Class 1 and didn't pass. Some things can be disputed and worked around, but it isn't easy.

 

 

[Guest Condog]

I was just thinking about this myself today, I'm trying to justify to myself the purchase of a 230 or 430. If you look at the fuel consumption as litres per mile instead of litres per hour, its not much more than the 170.

Hi thanks I hadnt thought about it in that way. That makes a lot of sense.

 

For the most useable carrying capacity, the J170 has 340kg empty, max 600kg. J160 has 320kg empty, max 540kg. J230 has 360 empty, max 600kg. Fuel would be around 95kgs extra full.

So in the 340kg useable weight , 95kg of fuel leaves 245kg for passengers and baggage, is that correct. Because its a max takeoff weight of 600kg.

 

Keen A, A four cylinder motor has a situation twice each revolution where all pistons are stationary. This reduces their flywheel effect at those points to zero. A six cylinder motor never has more than two (out of six not four out of four) stopped, there fore much less need for a flywheel. The prop is most of the flywheel and there is less load imposed upon it. I have flown cont 0-300's in both direct and geared versions. Much more smooth than the four cylinder Lycoming replacements in the later C-i72's and much less of a ".clunker" to fly behind. In the same airframe you get a good comparison there. The thing about the Jabiru engine is that you are comparing a "small" engine with another which is one and a half times bigger and the extra power makes the pilot aware of it when getting into one from the other. Nev

Thanks Nev For both your replies

 

A retractable undercarriage would be handy also. Something like a Piper Arrow would be ideal. If he shows up to an employer with a few hundred hours in an arrow or even a 182 or Piper 180 (or C210, C206, Piper Charger) then he'll stand a good chance at getting that first job. If he's just showing J170 hours then his chances will be very slim.You'll find an Arrow for $80-120k. Goes without saying that it would be a more comfortable round australia trip also! Piper Cherokee for $30k would be worth more to your son also and carry a couple of big bags...

 

All that is probably useless to you though if you've already done the research!

Thanks - all advice is welcome and greatly appreciated. At this stage hearing others opinions is just fantastic. So a big thanks for taking the time to respond so detailed.

 

A word of warning for any aspiring CPL pilot - make sure you get the Class 1 medical before you start training. I have known two people who were mostly through their 150hr CPL course when they went for the Class 1 and didn't pass. Some things can be disputed and worked around, but it isn't easy.

Yep first thing the sone did was Class 1 Medical and passed.

Thank you to all for input.

 

In terms of where im at and thinking im a little undecided now. I was initially thinking just these 3 jabs. But with the advice about Pipers, 182's etc, if i want my son to smash up 300-500 hours real quick then a Piper Cherokee might be best or a 182, then as soon as hes finished sell it and get a jb for us. As i have no need for a Piper.

 

See the way i view it is if i had to pay for him to go to uni, it would cost me $50-$70K in course fees + accomodation transport + alcohol etc etc. Prob easily over $100K over 4 years.

 

Where as the CPL with say 200 hours and a few endorsements will cost around $70 ish with no accommodation , alcohol and transport. So then rather then me paying for his keep for 5 years plus while he racks up enough hours to be highly employable, i figure its cheaper and better for him if he racks up hours asap. Hiring a plane for 300+ hours in say less then 12 months just doesnt make sense as 300 hrs at say $180 is $54000 500hrs is $90,000 700 hours is $126,000

 

Where as Piper Cherokee running costs at say $100 per hour see below:

 

http://www.what2fly.com/operating_cost/piper/pa28-140_cherokee_'65.php

 

works out to be $30,000 or $50,000 or $70,000

 

Im hoping 300 - 500 hours would be easily sufficient to hook a paid job.

 

So id rather him spend say 1 year and get up plenty of hours and get a paid job , then support him while he bums around and racks up hours slowly..

 

Piper arrow at say $180 pr hr running costs vs hire would be similar disparity in cost.

 

So i have plenty to think about when weighing it up this way, as the cost of hiring is almost the cost of the plane. Eg i could by a Cherokee for say $40,000 let him do 500 hours then sell it for $30,000 (for a quicker sale) at a cost of say $100 per hour running costs it will cost me $50,000 plus the $10K I lose selling it. Which is $60,000 instead of the $90,000 if i hire it... Make sense ??

 

Alternatively look at it this way. For the cost of hiring for 500 hours i can buy and he can do approx 800 hours...

 

 

[cherk]

Alternatively look at it this way. For the cost of hiring for 500 hours i can buy and he can do approx 800 hours...

 

Don't forget the 5 to 8, one hundred hourlies.

 

 

[Bandit12]

Sometimes there are adverts for leasing aircraft with minimum hours per year at a fixed hourly rate dry. Maybe that is something worth thinking about. Or approach a reputable school with an offer for XXX hours per year guaranteed and see what price they do.

 

 

[Guest Condog]

Don't forget the 5 to 8, one hundred hourlies.

Isnt that included in running costs ?

 

 

[Guest Condog]

Sometimes there are adverts for leasing aircraft with minimum hours per year at a fixed hourly rate dry. Maybe that is something worth thinking about. Or approach a reputable school with an offer for XXX hours per year guaranteed and see what price they do.

Thanks

 

 

[coljones]

quentas said: ↑

 

For the most useable carrying capacity, the J170 has 340kg empty, max 600kg. J160 has 320kg empty, max 540kg. J230 has 360 empty, max 600kg. Fuel would be around 95kgs extra full.

 

So in the 340kg useable weight , 95kg of fuel leaves 245kg for passengers and baggage, is that correct. Because its a max takeoff weight of 600kg.

Not quite as good as that

 

J170 MTOW (600) - Empty (340) - Fuel (say 95) = 165 for Driver, pax and bags

 

J230 MTOW (600) - Empty (360) - Fuel (say 95) = 145 for Driver, pax and bags

 

The 600kg in RAA is a legal limit for the class whereas on the GA register the limit is that imposed by the the design and construction and is, I think, higher

 

 

[frank marriott]

VH registered MTOW 700kg