VW engines - KISS

[Soleair]

There is much excitement regarding a potential new aero engine on this forum. And rightly so, considering the outrageous price of Rotax engines.

 

Their ubiquitous 80 h.p plus engine series is priced at this exorbitant level because there really just isn't much competition.

 

But one of the most popular homebuilt designs in the States was for many years the Evans Volksplane VP - 1 & -2. If you look at the plans for these aircraft they use an almost unmodified VW donk. Replacing the distributor with a magneto; a bit of re-jigging on the inlet manifold; some stubby exhausts, and minimal machining of the flywheel to convert to a prop hub, and that's about it - go flying!

 

So why must I now spend vast amounts of hard-earned modifying a standard Beetle engine, having already overhauled it fully? Last price I saw was over $7k for the add-ons, putting the engine cost up there with a Scrotex 582 2-stroke.

 

"Dual ignition" I hear. Why? Yes, maybe in the old days of dirty oils & dynamo driven ignition systems. But since the advent of electronic breakerless CDI systems, hands up anyone who's had an ignition failure on their car that would have been prevented with a dual system. And what constitutes dual redundancy anyway? Two magnetos driven off the same shaft?

 

So what else is so essential that I need to spend so much on a well proven (if inefficient) simple, robust air cooled engine with collectively more hours in the field by several orders of magnitude than any Scrotex 912 diamond encrusted dollar guzzler.

 

Keep It Simple Stupid: why do we need all these mods to a straightforward engine today when so many flew so successfully for so many years before the age of committee rule?

 

Right, I'd better go and lie down now. It's nearly time for my medication.

 

Bruce

 

 

[Pilot Pete]

Hear..Hear........I agree

 

 

[facthunter]

They were used a lot once. I've had a look at versions of them from time to time. I'm a bit lukewarm to tell you the truth. They don't have enough power for a 2 seater. Many of them have a problem with the prop and the way it is coupled to the shaft. Think I would rather use a 80 HP Rotax second hand.

 

The VW sounds ok and looks like an aero engine, but the intake is on the top and siamesed, and they ice up you have one head on two barrels Not ideal. Going off it as I write. Nev

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

In the 80s there were some nice conversions available (Hapi engines, Aeroconversions, Morry Hummel etc) and some were used very successfully. They did tend to appeal to those who preferred to 'tinker' more than fly, and VW powered aircraft have accumulated their share of accidents over the years due to failures . Many failures were carb related with icing being the main problem. Others suffered failure of the crankshaft where the prop hub was attached. A taper was needed to be machined, and then the prop hub was heated and the crank frozen, the two were mated for a tight fit..

 

Most I feel,went by the wayside due lack of sufficient power as aircraft gained weight, some had constant oil pressure problems.

 

I myself 'tinkered' with a half VW conversion for a small UL, and I purchased a counter -weighted crank, modified heads and prop hub from Morry Hummel. The half 1600 case went together well and I did fly fly with it, until the model A carb (Zenith Stromberg up -draught) iced up very decisively on me one early morning, putting me into a paddock with resulting damage to my plane.

 

I then purchased a new Rotax 447 and went flying without any tinkering or failures . From there I went with 503s, 582s and then the great 912, and all have allowed me to do much more flying than 'tinkering'. If you look at the Subaru EA81 series, and the bottom end of the 912, they are just VW copies anyway as far as crank etc goes...I guess it boils down to wether you want to get your hands dirty on the ground or actually go flying................Maj...

 

 

[cooperplace]

Type One VW with standard heads are capable of 45 SUSTAINED horsepower before the heads start going 'plastic' ( ie melting).. They can be boosted to higher figures for short periods but not continuous..After market heads improved this but at what cost.. Cooling is ultra critical...

agree with all of this

 

 

[metalman]

I've always liked the "idea" of cheap auto engines in aircraft, sadly the reality just doesn't stack up, having said that I'd still love an SE5a replica with an Ls6 Chevy ,

 

 

[turboplanner]

"Dual ignition" I hear. Why? Yes, maybe in the old days of dirty oils & dynamo driven ignition systems. But since the advent of electronic breakerless CDI systems, hands up anyone who's had an ignition failure on their car that would have been prevented with a dual system. And what constitutes dual redundancy anyway? Two magnetos driven off the same shaft?

One item which still fouls and fails regularly is the spark plug - much more likely to load up that a magneto shaft is to break, so it does make sense.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Type One VW with standard heads are capable of 45 SUSTAINED horsepower before the heads start going 'plastic' ( ie melting).. They can be boosted to higher figures for short periods but not continuous..After market heads improved this but at what cost.. Cooling is ultra critical...

What heads? Why no oil or water cooled heads?

 

 

[paulh]

Revmaster R2300 - 82hp continuous $7,685 plus exhaust and freight costs etc from California, dropping Aus dollar affected tho. – reliability should be reasonable given the racing heritage and long development time, and perhaps at least as good as some other aircooled flat fours. Head cooling no doubt still an issue to be dealt with properly.

 

 

[facthunter]

I saw some water cooled heads somewhere for them. How much do you spend before it is making a "silk purse out of a sow's ear"?. The bottom end of the engine is it's foundation. I have looked at all original crankcases made and don't think they are the basis for a fast engine. Over boring them makes it worse. Direct drive limits revs used and output obtained because of prop speed. They are OK in a Corby, ( but the Jab 2200 is much better. It seems to suit the Corby). VP's etc fine they don't need a big engine. Nev

 

 

[sain]

I've had two ignition system failures in a car that wouldn't even have been noticed if there was a duel system (electronic ignition module failed due to overheating twice).

 

I've also been flying in an aircraft when one of the two ignition systems started playing up. Was I grateful the second one was there? you bet. Will I sacrifice for the cost and extra weight of a second one if its ever an option? you bet. Do I think your nuts if you go flying without a duel system? nope.

 

End of the day, what you spend on the engine is up to you. If you can do without the Nikasil treated cylinders, the electric start option, the generator and all the other add ons then go for it.

 

 

[skeptic36]

Nice little VW powered Tyro on eBay now http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/TYRO-MK-2-new-1600-vw-engine-and-prop-/300945761322?pt=AU_Aircraft&hash=item4611c3e42a&_uhb=1

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

The VW based engines used in the Sonex appear to be nice little units, with the bugs sorted out. Can any Sonex owner gives us a heads up on those ?...................Maj...

 

 

[fly_tornado]

apparently, the sonex struggle with MTOW in hot weather or high altitudes. still pretty good option for an occasional passenger in colder weather.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

One of the guys at my Mrs work has almost completed his sonex with the aerovee engine....no doubt I will see how it goes. I know he got it in in parts and had to assemble it. I have been trying to find the video of its first run but cant seem to find it

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Anyway what about the Viking engine it is reasonably priced and so far seems pretty good

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Anyway what about the Viking engine it is reasonably priced and so far seems pretty good

Decent option but go read the Yahoo Groups about them first, not all roses and no one trusts the guy who's doing them because of a fairly inconsistent and dodgy past - again, all at the Groups site.

 

No promises on mine, it may be a disappointment but I do have back up designs ready to step up just in case such as a 1.8 litre flat 6 all mapped out. I'm pretty keen on the little 180hp 2.2 litre V8 we have drawn up also but thats a few years away.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I spoke to the guy who used to run the Eggenfellner Subaru support group. Jan left his old customers with about $200K in missing engines. None of the 15 2.5L turbo STI engines packages he sold ever got off the ground. He supplied one of the last customers with a Subaru engine and told him to get a gearbox from another supplier!

 

Buying a viking is a big gamble.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

And I spoke to a guy and I flew in a rv8 with a eggenfelner engine blah blah blah....yes there are a lot of people not happy with eggenfelner but there are also Lot flying his engines you only hear the bad reports because those people squeal the loudest. I have been watching this latest iteration with eggenfelner and he seems to have learnt a lot of lessons....he still has some bad habits but it looks like he is making a effort to do much better work and service. We will all know soon enough as there is a WAC spirit not far from flying here in qld with a Viking...there is also another aircraft down south using a Viking and flying...it hasn't fallen out of the sky yet. I commend anyone having a go at trying to get a reliable cheaper engine into our market I think there are way too many fly tornados on this forum who like to spew vitriol way too much instead of sitting back and making CONSTRUCTIVE comments and adding to a valuable discussion. I am not a eggenfelner fan at all I like to look at the whole picture and not have too many preconceived ideas when looking at any new product....you know it's called "an open mind "

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Jan is dangerous.

 

 

[Methusala]

I had a VW engined VP-2 for 12 yrs. Grafted Bosch multipoint EFI on and had NO issues with engine during the time. Used to run 3600 rpm for 2 min on take off and would cruise all day at 3200. Never an icing problem flying from 2500ft all seasons in Canberra area. Have a friend with an 1835 who has done 600 hrs without issue. Cooling is the most important issue. Don

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Never an icing problem flying from 2500ft all seasons in Canberra area.

Difficult to believe, I lived in Canverra for 2 years and I had icing probems at ground level!!

 

 

[Methusala]

Well I've never lived in Canverra! He he he! Don

 

 

[facthunter]

Anytime the inlet tract is very long beware of icing. They used to ice up in the car when the small pipe the exhaust went through to warm it blocked up. That is not fitted on a plane. Nev

 

 

[Teckair]

I have two VW powered aircraft a Chinnook and a Skyfox. Most stuff said on here about VW engines is correct but I still like them, parts are cheap and available, they don't make a clunk when you turn them off which sounds like it just seized up as the 912 does. The 912 is a better proposition as far as power to weight is concerned but it is as dear as poison, as are the parts, you can buy a new one and and it can have a stack of ADs waiting to be done before you even start it up. As has been said there needs to be some competition for Rotax.