Taking ya mate for a fly think twice

[rankamateur]

Find out what RAA membership and registration offers.

But have you ever seen anything written to specify this with regard to insurance cover? It is way past time for some open, honest and complete communication to members from RAAus on this matter, without the spin, the smoke and the mirrors. It doesn't have to be public, a good topic for the members portal.

 

 

[turboplanner]

It is important to exercise duty of care by pointing out all the risks; that will help you in a case where someone might be claiming he/she had been told more people are killed driving to the airport/you can get killed crossing the road, or other clever ploys to downplay the risk.

 

Having someone sign a written explanation of risks provides proof your insurer can take to court, but a person doesn't have the right to hand off a Tort, which means they cannot give away their right to sue if negligence occurs, so those good old days are gone.

 

The key today is

 

(a) Know what duty of care is and means

 

(b) Minimise risk

 

© Have adequate public liability insurance at all times

 

To understand what this is all about I STRONGLY recommend you spend less than the cost of a hour's flight (in most cases), and get a briefing from a lawyer who specialises in public liability.

 

 

[farri]

We pointed out several times that was a specific case about a specific issue in one jurisdiction - NSW, and not only that, but was still subject to appeal, so it's not a precedent at this time.

Thank you!..... Looks like I missed that very important point completely.

 

Frank.

 

 

[ayavner]

This breaks my heart :-(

 

I, too, started down this road a little over 2 years ago as a result of a mate taking me up for a fly. I was hooked forever and can't wait to pay it forward! But, this does give me pause for thought.. and Steve, please keep us posted if you can, and I wish you all the best.

 

 

[farri]

With years of experience behind me, I don`t think there is a much greater chance of being sued, these days, than there ever has been.

 

There always has been and always will be those who will not take responsibility for their own actions and when it goes wrong they want to sue whoever they can, as many as they can, for as much as they can get.

 

Has it become easier for someone to sue? In my opinion, Absolutely! The biger problem is that so many others can sue on someone else`s behalf and they can sue for things, other than just personal injury.

 

Unless I`m wrong and I sincearly hope I am, I would only need to frighten someone who I took flying, for them to be able to sue me.

 

Scenario: I take someone up, do something realy stupid and frighten them. They go to their lawyer and say they were terrified while flying with me and now they are traumatised. As a result they can`t function normally and it`s all my fault. I have something to grab, so they come after me.

 

Bottom line: Think carefully before taking anyone flying and keep it as safe as you possibly can. Always remember you are in the aircraft also.

 

I did a tandem parachute jump and I was watching the guy who I was going to jump with, checking all the gear. He told me not to be concerned, everything was ok. I replied " I`m not! Your jumping with me."

 

Frank.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I don't think it has become any easier to sue - the person has always had to prove you owed them a duty of care and breached it.

 

Mind you that's fairly easy if you've just done a beach beat up with them, got hit by windshear and put the nose into the sand breaking their back.

 

If you scared someone and it caused permanent damage that might be a problem but they would have to prove negligence on your part, and would need to involve some serious psychological analysis, so it probably wouldn't be worth it unless permanent damage had been done by something really terrifying, which would probably mean you had persisted with whatever scared them.

 

 

[cooperplace]

Cover your bases with insurance. Find out what RAA membership and registration offers. Your best mate deserves the very best from you - next time it could be a broken back instead of a pair of glasses. Or if you don't have enough insurance, include in your passenger briefing a part that seeks to indemnify yourself and get them to sign a damages waver. Only in that way can you ensure that your passenger is a fully (or even partly) informed passenger (but is a kid an informed client under any circumstances?). This briefing and indemnity, of course, doesn't cover the innocent bystander so you will need insurance for them.

possibly even such a briefing wouldn't work: it's hard for people to sign away their rights under common law! There's nothing to stop your "mate" still suing you despite them having signed a truckload of documents

 

 

[cooperplace]

I don't think it has become any easier to sue - the person has always had to prove you owed them a duty of care and breached it.Mind you that's fairly easy if you've just done a beach beat up with them, got hit by windshear and put the nose into the sand breaking their back.

If you scared someone and it caused permanent damage that might be a problem but they would have to prove negligence on your part, and would need to involve some serious psychological analysis, so it probably wouldn't be worth it unless permanent damage had been done by something really terrifying, which would probably mean you had persisted with whatever scared them.

hang on, you've said to someone "I'm a pilot, I can fly this plane, come fly with me", they accept, and you think you can convince a court that you don't owe any duty of care?? Good luck!

Let me add that I really sympathise with Steve who has broken his back and his ^&*( "mate" is suing him over some clothes or some such stuff. And also I don't think Steve is at fault in any way. Steve, you don't deserve this and I hope youget better very soon and that the legal hassles go away.

 

 

[facthunter]

You are obviously traumatised by all this Steve. The most important thing is to recover fully as you have the rest of your life ahead of you. Take time to make the correct assessment . I think being careful who you take with you is advice for a few to think about. The Passenger insurance is part of the RAAus deal. You are better with it even if you have to pay the excess. Only the totally poor or extremely rich do OK in this society in a court situation. Justice and LAW may have little resemblance. Nev

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Steve it would be helpful to know just what has happened on insurance. I think you said RAAus insurance is making demands on you? I don't understand that. Have they paid a claim to your "mate"? You might, not know, I suppose. Did you have aircraft insurance that included public liability? It seems strange that any insurance company is having a go at you.

 

 

[frank marriott]

It’s the ambulance chasers that have bastardised the legal industry. No win to fee. It is this approach being offered with the result of “I’ll give it a go, don’t think I will get anything but no skin off my nose” attitude.

 

The rest of us pay more for insurance to support these leaches on society.

 

 

[cooperplace]

Steve it would be helpful to know just what has happened on insurance. I think you said RAAus insurance is making demands on you? I don't understand that. Have they paid a claim to your "mate"? You might, not know, I suppose. Did you have aircraft insurance that included public liability? It seems strange that any insurance company is having a go at you.

Steve, you could tell the insurance company to just go away until you're off the endone. Anyone on a drug like this -serious stuff- shouldn't be making important legal decisions, I suggest. And your pain and trauma does not need adding to. Try telling them to go away for a month.

 

 

[kaz3g]

I

 

It’s the ambulance chasers that have bastardised the legal industry. No win to fee. It is this approach being offered with the result of “I’ll give it a go, don’t think I will get anything but no skin off my nose” attitude. The rest of us pay more for insurance to support these leaches on society.

In actual fact it is more difficult to sue for personal injury today than it was just a decade ago.

 

The states and the Commonwealth colluded to pass tort law reform across the country which seriously reduced the opportunity for making a successful claim for damages in personal injury cases.

 

The risk of an adverse costs order where a litigant is unsuccessful has been a major impediment to the "little people" in our society litigating and from obtaining just compensation for harm caused. No Win No Fee gives them the chance to get the same sort of justice that the better heeled in the community expect as a matter of course and it makes the lawyers think carefully about the prospects of success before commencing an action.

 

I don't see that as a bad thing.

 

Lawyers are like doctors... Remedial work is expensive and they consequently charge a lot for it, but they prefer preventative work which avoids the pain and ensures a better life for those that avail themselves.

 

Perhaps RAAus should seek advice on a suitably worded indemnity that could be made available to members for their use along with an appropriately worded explanation to be given to prospective passengers?

 

Kaz

 

 

[winsor68]

IMO it is the Insurance Companies themselves we should be unhappy with...

 

Steve...in all seriousness...I reckon the best thing to do is tell them to go away for at least a month... Or better yet get someone else to... You need to fix you first.

 

 

[turboplanner]

hang on, you've said to someone "I'm a pilot, I can fly this plane, come fly with me", they accept, and you think you can convince a court that you don't owe any duty of care?? Good luck!Let me add that I really sympathise with Steve who has broken his back and his ^&*( "mate" is suing him over some clothes or some such stuff. And also I don't think Steve is at fault in any way. Steve, you don't deserve this and I hope youget better very soon and that the legal hassles go away.

What I said was the person claiming had to prove you breached your duty of care; there has to be proof that you were negligent before anyone gets a cent.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Steve it would be helpful to know just what has happened on insurance. I think you said RAAus insurance is making demands on you? I don't understand that. Have they paid a claim to your "mate"? You might, not know, I suppose. Did you have aircraft insurance that included public liability? It seems strange that any insurance company is having a go at you.

This certainly does seem bizarre.

 

 

[Cosmick]

My Mum made me eat my vegies (hated Beans), I could use $3k

 

 

[farri]

Or if you don't have enough insurance, include in your passenger briefing a part that seeks to indemnify yourself and get them to sign a damages waver. Only in that way can you ensure that your passenger is a fully (or even partly) informed .

I`m not convince about that, by a long shot. I don`t think that there is anyone who would or could, cover every single piece of information required in a briefing, to make sure that someone who understands very little or nothing about flying, is fully aware of what they are about to do.

 

Years ago a local CFI from another school, tried to convince me to adopt his waiver form, which he claimed was approved by his solicitor. In trying to cover as many issues as possible, the form was so long that by the time I got to the end I couldn`t remember what I`d read at the begining.

 

The fact that someone has signed a form doesn`t mean that they understood what they were signing. I have never had or intend to have a waiver form but I`m not sugesting that others don`t.

 

Is a waiver form better than nothing? Possibly... How much insurance cover is enough???

 

If you`re not prepared to take the risk, don`t take anyone up. It`s almost impossible to cover yourself completely, for all situations.

 

Frank

 

 

[AVOCET]

My public liability insurance for the airstrip requires any plane landing to sign a waiver ,

 

But I recon that if a signed waiver is all you need , why do you need insurance ?

 

I really don't think the waiver is worth any thing .

 

All Ican do is make the airstrip as safe as possible ,

 

IE . Check it out before aircraft land , wind sock ect . Good approaches ,no landing in wind over 20knts , but nothing is idiot proof .

 

I'm now reluctant to take passengers unless they are really keen and understand the risks.

 

Mike

 

 

[Teckair]

Never give anybody written permission to land on your strip, make it as safe as you can, the rest is up to the pilot in command. Verbal agreements and waivers mean nothing and could work against you (as an admission of risk similar to a dog warning sign on a gate). The more people that have insurance the worse the situation will get it just makes you a target for greedy lawyers and other money hungry morons.

 

 

[farri]

In actual fact it is more difficult to sue for personal injury today than it was just a decade ago.Kaz

You Beauty! but then again, I suppose the lawyers just try harder.

 

Frank.

 

 

[turboplanner]

What you are calling a waiver, may be a warning of inherent dangers, and the signature may be the Insurance company's proof that certain dangers were pointed out.

 

You cannot have someone sign away their right to sue you if you are negligent.

 

In fact we lost one case because a promoter advertised an event as a "family night" and didn't have a danger warning, and we lost another after when we did have a danger warning, because we failed to add that the injured party had the right to sue for negligence.

 

The danger warning can in some cases mitigate the level of negligence, but of course you still need full PL Insurance.

 

Forget about comments like "idiot proof", there are standards of safety you must maintain, which should be spelled out in your SMS.

 

 

[Robert]

Its a mad mad world and getting madder

 

 

[mAgNeToDrOp]

So now I need to pay for liability insurance on top of everything else? This is all too hard. Maybe I'll just go fishing.... by myself.

 

 

[dazza 38]

So now I need to pay for liability insurance on top of everything else? This is all too hard. Maybe I'll just go fishing.... by myself.

I feel the same way.